DUB DISCUSSION BOARD

I have a hard time sometimes distinguishing between dub, house, big beat, and discotech. Is it all the same with subtle differences? Is it up to the listener to decide which particualr song is in what category, as the case is in acid jazz? Can you describe and differentiate these forms of music &#40;not acid jazz, that's my specialty&#41; for me, please? You see, I'm working on compilations and mixes of acid jazz -influenced music, and I want to make one for each genre, as I have enough variety and quantity of jazz to do so, or at least to get a good start. I sometimes have problems differentiating, or categorizing certain songs &#40;"Is this house, or dub? Is it jungle or breakbeat?"&#41; That kind of thing. <BR>See, I don't want to put a "house" song on a "dub" compilation. Any help would be greatly appreciated. <BR> <BR>Thanx, <BR> Nolan

Dub was invented back in the seventies when jamaican producers found out that instead of putting just an instrumental version of a song on the B-side of a vinyl single they could create additional value for the buyer when they enrichen these versions by the use of special mixing techniques and effects like delay and reverb. Soon these special remix techniques established themselves as an artform called Dub. <BR> <BR>Nowadays the term Dub is used in a widely different manner by different people. At one end you have people who only recognize something as Dub if it is clearly based on a reggae tune. Some people claim that it's actually the mixing techniques which are important, not the type of music you apply it to. At the other end you see the term Dub sticked to lame instrumental versions of top 40 dance productions just as an excuse for not producing another real song for a CD-single. <BR> <BR> <BR>I think since the dubbing techniques are nowadays used in almost any kind of electronic music it does not make sense to use the term Dub unless there is some real reference to the original jamaican Dub of the seventies. This means there should at least be some sort of Reggae drumming or a Reggae bassline. <BR>To have an idea you might want to have a look at our <A HREF="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... 1379">list of recommended Dubs </A>. Also check the <A HREF="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... roductions by users of this site</A>. You might find a Dub that fits the requirements of your compilation! <BR> <BR>Daniel aka The Interruptor

Listen to THE KING >>TUBBY<<and you will know what is DUB. <BR> <BR>See you. <BR> <BR>Jah Bless, <BR><A HREF="http://www.kocha.fr.st" TARGET="_top">KoCha</A>

I want people to put their opinions on something I believe to be an very important matter on this page. Dub is REGGAE music. Is this a general consensus? Where does House come into it? <BR> <BR>This is crazy talk: <BR>Jungle and Dub similar !?!?! <BR> <BR> <BR>This is not: <BR>"it does not make sense to use the term Dub unless there is some real reference to the original jamaican Dub of the seventies" <BR> <BR>Come on. <BR> <BR> <BR>See I really love this site, because there seems to be a lot of intelligent people talking about something I love, with the same passion as I. <BR>However when I see the first message on this list about Acid Jazz my heart bleeds. <BR> What if these people who I think are talking about real Dub &#40;a la King Tubby&#41; really mean some House tune.....? I dunno if anyone gets me but.... <BR> The way I see it if you don't like King Tubby, you don't like Dub....does anyone disagree? <BR> <BR>People could like heavy metal and not like Metallica or like Hip Hop but not like Mos Def, but King Tubby and Dub.....it's like .......................

If I heard a house song on a dub complitation I would get sick.

i see that you draw a very strict line between dub and house, but i don't think this is really necessary. <BR>of course, if you take a typical house track and a dub tune from the seventies you will not find many common aspects. but compare a house tune to a dub track with steppers style drumming and you'll find two common things: <BR> <BR>- a steady four on the floor beat at around 130 beats per minute &#40;bass drum kick on each beat&#41; <BR> <BR>- no traditional song structures &#40;alternating verses and chorus&#41;, dominance of the rhythm, less emphasis on melodies and chords <BR> <BR>additionally for a dub you need a bassline, a house track would rather feature some funky synthesizer lines. <BR>so as you can see there is a common base and it's no problem to create "dubby house tunes" or "housey dub tracks". an excellent example of this is Rockers Hi-Fi's early hit "Push Push". also the british dub group "Zion Train" worked in the same vein. <BR> <BR>With all those influences dub producers integrate into their music nowadays dub has become a wide field and I think it's ok like that. <BR> <BR>Daniel

I see where you're coming from, indeed. That wasn't supposed to be a personal attack on anyone and it makes sense that people can discuss whatever they want here. It just seems to me that nolan is unaware of the ROOTS of Dub, which I'm sure you agree are very important...

Yeah, Nolan also wrote me by e-mail and it turned out his not affiliated with a record label as it seems from his post - he wants to compile music and has yet to find a label to release the compilations. And as you noted he didn't know much about Dub so far. <BR>Indeed I also think you cannot really understand Dub without knowing where it's coming from..

is discotech a form of music?

Although nowadays "dub" is an extremely wide term, my personal opinion is that it really SHOULD be based on a reggae tune. <BR>I also know that a lot of people confuse dub with drum'n'bass. &#40;!?!&#41; <BR>The main thing about dub is that it's mostly in a slow tempo, unlike drum'n'bass or jungle. <BR>Next thing I'll be hearing will probably be that people are confusing dub with ska. :-&#41;

<FONT COLOR="ff0000">Although nowadays "dub" is an extremely wide term, my personal opinion is that it really SHOULD be based on a reggae tune.</FONT> <BR> <BR>Yeah, it's way too 'wide' ..heh heh <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":&#41;"> <BR>You see, if you say it SHOULD be based on reggae - it is not exactly how i'd put it. I'd say DUB IS based on reggae. It's just IS. all the rest is the result of what ever it may be, what ever reason musicians, producers may 'call' their creations dub, or define their production as dub... let it be, I guess, it is not changing the DUB. It's more like a somewhat silly thing. <BR>Here's an example, I was just swingin' over mp3.com to see if any new dubs out, here's a nu-tune: <BR><A HREF="http://artists.mp3s.com/artist_song/2990/2990256.html" TARGET="_blank">Dubing is music</A>, by len-works... <BR>check it out, you will not regret <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":&#41;"> <BR>And the title is just right for the topic here. God knows what the producer means there, but be peace with him. All I can do is to say: "Well, ok, I guess it is 'music', what ever you say, man...." <BR> <BR>Again, if you are independent musician, producer I still belive that it is your sort of responsability to 'know what your are doing'. Sure you can just say: "I don't give a 'sh&#42;' 'bout genre thing, I am a totally free artist ..blah blah blah..., it does not do any good for you , nor for your listener. You just make a joke out of yourself this way. <BR>Being creative, original, innovative has nothing to do with basic ignorance and baseless ambitions, - I'd say to be hard on it <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":&#41;">. For any form of art, not just music or dub specifically. <BR>Just take at least some time to get some basic idea about genre, community, fans, culture and history of the art-form you are claiming for... <BR> <BR>/respects <BR>/Mike Zee

I m agree mike ,my dub take is origin from <BR>a dry 16tracks&#40;3m 2inch&#41;reaggae,All the mutes <BR>an effect are made with the mix . <BR>the song can be mixed by so many different way <BR>and errors take a part of it ,analog mix is <BR>much better than a pre mixed digital mix for me; <BR>Group of mutes are very usefull and you ve got <BR>to experiment all effect routing ; <BR>I would say that the mixer becomes an musician <BR>&#40;apologies for my bad English&#41;

<FONT COLOR="ff0000">errors take a part of it</FONT> <BR> <BR>this IS it! <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":&#41;"> And allots of 'moves' which may be 'treated' as errors, are not really errors, they become sort of like a character/attitude/mood shaping elements. This stuff is really hard to explain, when trying to make some sort of technical sense. I only can compare it to something like: the same actor in the same theater-play reads the same monologue, but each time it has some little elements of unexpected 'errors', which the actor him/herself can not predict nor control. This is why each performance is never a "program". <BR> <BR>/respects, <BR>/M ZEE

this is the way i work mike ,I" seach the error" <BR>with the groups of mute and effects running the <BR>one to the another ,just beware the noise. <BR>don t you search a good skank for studio or dub live with a little foxtex 16p tape rec <BR> <BR>aleph from france

yeh, <BR>and speakin' of 'errors' <BR> <BR>may I stress "poetically" <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":&#41;"> <BR>"At The Begining The Was No Dub, but AN ERROR was sent from THE ABOVE - AN ERROR of Silence within the pass of The Moaning Voice. And thus one of us, among all Earth Sinners, could HEAR the Message and fill the Space. And Thus The DUB was born.... " <BR>heh heh <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":&#41;">, I love writing this kinda stuff ... <BR> <BR>/Mike Zee

is your word mike&#40;:-&#41; that is the way i ve found the reeinjection effect <BR>by error &#40;mentionned at the chat with interruptor&#41; :i ve send the return off effect to the effect by error and heard what tubby as done <BR>20 year before&#40;:-&#41;

Mike, in one of your recent posts you said that all dub is based on reggae. Although, as I said, I think it should be that way, to say that today all dub is reggae-based, is simply not true. <BR>Take St.germain for instance. It's considered to be dub. And they have salsa sound in their music, they have bossa nova sound, but I actually found very little of the original jamaican reggae sound. <BR>The thing is, St. Germain really experiment with their music, and the way they do it is alot like what other dub artists do. Now, we can talk about wether it is the reggae tune that 'necessary ingredient' to make dub, or is it the mixing techniques and style. <BR>We seem to have same opinions on what dub should sound like, but different on what is generally considered as dub. <BR>Anyway, respects.

Wazzoo, there's a "name" for it, it's called Dub-Fusion, similar to World-Fusion. No mystery there. <BR>Exprerimental music always was there and will be in any genres &#40;as an experimental art in general&#41;. <BR>If heavy-metal band use reggae-rhythm - it is no reggae, it is still heavy-metal. <BR>Reggae-band also can play Cucaracha if they wish, but it is still going to be Basic Salsa as long water runs in The River ... <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":&#41;">, of course Someone can apply some 'creative thinking' and start considering A Pond being A River and A River being A Pond, saying: "Water Run" or "Water Still" makes no difference for me, as my mind is totally Free from relativisms of things...." <BR>You see, this guy len-works, made some 'creative piece of music', right? - Right. This is great. So what makes him to define his innovative piece of art as something old and moldy - DUB.???? <BR>Why to do this? Try to answer this question. <BR>To me it is nothing but ambition. If you are experimenting - then say: my work is EXPERIMENTAL, or name your style something else, if you are so creative, then why is it so hard for you to create a new style/genre name, if you really need one...? <BR> <BR>Dub as musical genre - is reggae music. <BR>Dub as "word" - it is what ever you wish it to be... who cares, really. Give it any meaning as you wish... <BR>Dubbin Techniques??? -what's this? A Line of music-production technical tricks? This is all it is. You can apply them on what ever you wish, including your weekly Laundry ....<IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":&#41;"> <BR> <BR>/respects <BR>/Mike Zee

I like your speech dubhead. <BR>But for me Dub is a way for mixing reggae. <BR>But dub is too the first remix style and so the base of all other including st.germain or comercial fat boy slim and moby.. but no one say fat boy slim or moby make dub, beceause we not hear any big ressemblance with the reggae style... <BR> <BR>But st.germain have some good reggae rythm.. <BR> <BR>So i agree with mike zee with terme Dub-Fusion! funny ;&#41; <BR> <BR>Nuf bla bla... stop trying to put music in genre.. i go hear it, better.. <BR> <BR>Jah Bless, <BR><A HREF="http://www.kocha.fr.st" TARGET="_top">KoCha</A>

KoCha said: "Enough Blah.." ..heh heh <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":&#41;"> <BR>no-way, man, keep talking ... <BR> <BR>Putting 'music' into genre???? hmmmmm... I would not need to do that. Music is music, genre is genre. It's just there. Like it or not. <BR>If any musician does not want to deal with it, then don't. Just call your music - "music", simple as that.... or isn't it? <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":&#41;"> <BR>BTW, if Ludovic feels like playing/sequencing some reggae and produce it as dub, because He's in the mood for it at the moment and got tired of all the bunch of what ever he was playing/sequencing before - this is just fine with me. <BR>"Ahhhh, I don't know, I feel like playing some reggae at the moment..." ..<IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":&#41;"> <BR>If he going to apply "dub-techniques" on his salsa-moods or what ever jazzy'n'bluesy improvisations... this is fine, go for it man, it will NOT however change a thing about what DUB is. <BR>If boys around the world go nuts and girls go ECSTATIC about Ludovic's sals-ish chills with nice bass-feel - it is just fine, good for him. <BR>The DUB still stands where it was. DUB is way too big and heavy to be shakin' by a Mosquito Buzz...<IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":&#41;"> <BR>I hope I make any bit of sense here to anybody ...heh heh <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":&#41;"> <BR> <BR>I love myself experimenting and improvising - piano improvisations is my favotite thing to do ... <BR> <BR>later, <BR>/respects <BR>/Mike Zee