How to distinguish between dub, house, big beat and discotec

KoCha · Post by **KoCha** » Fri Jan 10, 2003 9:00 am

I just bought a melodica last 2 day... improvisation with that is more powerful than a piano impro.. I have play on version of augustus pablo where he do not play melodica but with trumpet... playing melodica on master tracks it's fantastatic.. impro!!! playing an instrument take a same sensation that doing a live mix! I sure now the mixing desk is an instrument ;-) QUOTE : If he going to apply "dub-techniques" on his salsa-moods or what ever jazzy'n'bluesy improvisations... this is fine, go for it man, it will NOT however change a thing about what DUB is. Yes i agree.. dub is dub to the end of times. But i want they evolutate too! Mike zee.. my web hoster just valid my tracks today.. can you give me your feedback before i make the BIG update and official release (i'm at work so i can't update site). (i'm hurry that somebody hear my new tracks) This the url : http://stage.vitaminic.fr/kocha (It's a sequenced melodica because i haven't now the masterise to record myself playing melodica.) Thx a lot. <A HREF="http://www.kocha.fr.st" TARGET="_top">KoCha</A>

helix resonator · Post by **helix resonator** » Mon May 12, 2003 11:32 pm

"Dub as a genre is reggae"?? I tend to disagree mi bredren. reggae as a genre is reggae(and clearly there are mainy different sub-genres in there too). dub reggae as a genre is dub reggae(once again anything from roots to future dub reggae). DUB anything and everything and it's still DUB yo!!!! Be proud and knowledgeable of where Dub comes from and hopefully you'll realize that those roots are very precious, but that doesn't mean that dub reggae is the only true dub. Again dub is about new and creative cerebral innovations. And applying dub techniques to other music genres besides just reggae exemplifies that dubwise tenet well. If you dig it, dub it, seen!! Plenty of well wicked dubby jungle/d&b, experimental electronic dub, future dubwise(with a variety of feels, keeping it very interesting) and even dub with a punk rock essence or further yet dub-core(a name I choose to use for certain heavy duty tracks of ours). I mean we just did a series last night of three "future abstract dubby dark hop" cuts that are very much dub but don't have any reggae skanks in there per se. (you probably haven't heard of that genre, we just invented it) It's all a matter of taste really, but all this division, conventionalism and "it's not dub unless it's reggae" is kind of contradicting the innovative experimental essence of this art form in the first place. It all goes in circles and everything has it's rightful influence on everything else and it's ALL relevant. Old school revivalism is great too and I say mix a little of that in there as well. But embrace the new stuff too and join us in 2003 and lets move together into the future. Tubbs would have wanted it that way! RRRight!! Respect!! Jacob I, aka caper1, aka miosotis, aka lt. lunatico from the Helix Hub

munky lee · Post by **munky lee** » Tue May 13, 2003 8:35 pm

no man! as said by the french band Improvisator's Dub : "dub is reggae, reggae is dub"

Mike Zee · Post by **Mike Zee** » Tue May 13, 2003 8:39 pm

imho, it also depends of what exactly meaning do you put into words. To say: DUB is REGGAE is valid, but not direct cut and dry. DUB is dub, while Reggae is Reggae. it's true just as is. It's also pointless. Snow is snow. Sand is sand. Water is water. Blah is Blah - that's for sure <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)">. Pointless is pointless. DUB anything and everything and it's still DUB yo!!!! well, man, read it for yourself what you are saying. If DUB od anything is DUB, then it's pretty much the same as to say: "DUB is anything". Yep, simply because if you aply dub 'techniques' on anything (anything goes) you'll get pretty much ANYTHING at your output. If ANYTHING is DUB, then there's no such a things as DUB. More to that, if you follow this 'philosophy', then EVERYTHING is ANYTHING... and at the end EVERYTHING is NOTHING... read 'fiction'... it's pretty close to so called agnosticism...well, not directly, but linking to it: "an agnostic is one who holds that the existence of anything beyond and behind natural phenomena is unknown, and (so far as can be judged) unknowable, and especially that a First Cause and an unseen world are subjects of which we know nothing." The bottom line is: We Know Nothing. Or another words: what ever we know (or say "we thing we know") and as follows by "what ever we may think or say is = NOTHING. Sure you can arm yourself with this philosophical notion (or vision) and go on, and do your work, live your life, create your art... well, you can even preach it <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)">... BUT! here's the reality. People do not go deep into in general. So if you look at the DUB as actuall real (not abstract) established musical genre then you'll have to (whether you want it or not) face the reality and all the attributes which come with it and you have to deal with it. Established musical genre isn't just a 'formular' of some musical form... it's much more and much heavier 'creature'. It does includ actuall musical form and listeners/fan base with its own specific preferences, mindset and expectation and the whole culture surrounding it which is very tightly connected to it's root (read: historical point of establishment). Can you simply ignore it? - Sure. You can. But you get back what you "ask" for - it's like spitting into the wind, in a sense. ...dub is about new and creative cerebral innovations well. Maybe. It's only Maybe so. Or better yet to say: You can see it that way if it makes you feel better, or simply if this is something you really believe. That's fine. That is true, that at the beginning DUB was a "result" of 'innovation'. But try to follow me here. WAS IT really because of, was it really in THE NAME OF and was it really to SERVE the 'INNOVATION' as a some sort of HIGHER and above everything else notion.? NOP. I don't think so. 'Innovation' was there but it was not the 'heart', it was not the head, it was not the 'soul' it was not the 'reason'.... it was a way, or say : Vehicle on the way. What it was about? It was about the same music. It was about what SOUNDS good in the 'same music'. You can simply say: it was about what's cool ..heh heh, speaking today's language. Simple and plain. And it was not a something else. It was wat it was - it was REGGAE. It was born as reagge, and was accepted as reggae, it was growing as reggae, and it has became as established musical genre as REGGAE. IMHO, when people speak about DUB in terms of some sort of 'universal' or even 'global' notions - it's all nice and sexy, but it's all based on emotions rather than facts, rather than common sense. I.E., if you say something like: "DUB is all about innovations, exploration of unknown, reachin' out of 'unreachable horizons', DUB is a true highway to the FUTURE... etc etc " - you see this is all nice. But when this kind of 'emotional notions' being used as an 'excuse' for blind attitude of: 'anything goes' - anything IS what ever I feel like it is what ever I wish it to call, then I have problems with it. By the way this isn't happening to only DUB. In any art form(s) you can find similar discussions. There're people who would simply say anything spoken is POETRY, as example. Similar discussions about visual arts etc... There will be no final word point in these discussions. On academic level these are very complicated topics, but on 'common-ground' - it's pretty simple: if you DUB Tango La Cumparsita, go ahead, make your own day <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)">, but don't bring it to the rasta-club, 'cos you just gonna make an as* out yourself ..heh heh, however you can take your Tango La Cumpa'Dubba to BALLROOM DANCING hall, but then don't waste your time explaining why did you change the name to CumpaDubba, 'cos nobody cares... <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> /respects, /Mike Zee, aka Dr. ZEE <A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/music2/mikezee/zdl.html" TARGET="_blank">zee dub lab</A>

helix resonator · Post by **helix resonator** » Wed May 14, 2003 10:35 pm

First of all Mike Zee I wasn't necessarily trying to start a big negative circular argument within the confines of this site. It was merely a positive attempt to turn other people on to different styles of dub and perhaps motivate more people to get involved with the actual "real and contemporary" evolution of this very wonderful art form. DUB!! which I love very much, perhaps too much! In many many of its manifestations, not just the roots, because from the roots grows the TREE (of dub, so to speak). Dub is about growing like a tree which obviously doesn't grow without its roots, nor would it grow if you kept hacking away at it and kept it to only the roots. I am absolutely crazy about the countless dubwise experiments coming out of Jamaica from the early seventies to the early eighties!! That is why I am even on this site in the first place right. I do know dub sir. As I already stated, it all comes down to personal tastes and opinions. But you seem to come across very condescending. I am saying why not rid ourselves from these divisions and all this genre snobbery and embrace all that is good in your own sense of the word "good". If you wish to consider dub-reggae as the only dub then so be it, but don't you think that this is being a bit close-minded? Your message is loaded with ambiguous and contradictive statements throughout. It's not written very clearly and many of your terms are used irresponsibly and irrelavantly, considering the topic at hand. Your whole insert about agnosticism for example. We could get very philosophical about all this and run around in circles getting nowhere, but it's much more simple than that. I never once said that Dub is Anything. I meant that if you passionately and tastefully apply your dubbing skills to other genres or musical movements that you also love and can find commonalities in then, as follows(if you want to get out your logic 101 textbook), there will be dub involved therfore making it Dubby, not necessarily dub reggae depending on if a reggae feel was used, but dub nonetheless. Which is definitely not disrespectful to the originators of Dub, contrarily it is of the utmost compliment to them and most likely the way they would have wanted their ideas to be expounded upon, rather than simply regurgitated. Why do you think people like Lee Perry delve into many different styles and projects adding their own uniqueness and dubwise background to the mix? Because they are growing as artists and not in a stagnant state. So this whole Anything is Everything and Everything is Nothing and then linking it all to agnosticism of all things is getting a bit off track don't you think. And you may want to check your definition of the concept "abstract". It came across as though you think that if something is abstract than it is not real. Something "real" is something that you can see, hear, feel, touch, etc. right? And abstract things are clearly felt, heard, touched, seen etc. Therefor making them very much real. Once again I'll say that at the time of its conception Dub was a very abstract form of music in comparison to reggae which was not dubbed. It was truly original and ever-so progressive. Innovative progression being one of the MAIN tenets of DUB. Tubby always pushed Scientist to develop his skills further and be spontaneous, always trying new things and that is the epitome of DUB. It's Modern music based on positive artistic development, keeping things new and exciting relative to one's personal surroundings and interests in the PRESENT. Building upon the bones of those that came before us and leaving behind something distinct for those to come after us and once again interpret it in their own unique way. So if you understand and accept the true history of Dub, then you understand that it's logical that dub is not limited to only reggae music and rasta clubs when it has always been about breaking through those very same creativity crushing limits in the first place. Keep Steppin- Miosotis, friend in Dub

Mike Zee · Post by **Mike Zee** » Thu May 15, 2003 1:15 am

Helix Resonator , I'm not negative. I am realistic. What I am saying isn't what I wish or feel... it's about what IT really is like in real world. You can rid yourself from these divisions and all this genre snobbery and embrace all that is good in your own sense of the word "good" - it's great, it's nice. Sure do. Well, what will it do? As a fact You already did that. So you know the result. And the result is: DUB as genre (even if you yourself don't 'care' about genre snobbery) is STILL the same. Is it what I say or is it what it is? You may not like what I say. But forget about me and what I say... just see what it IS. So you wish to ignore it. Right? That's fine. What's the problem then? Well, the problem is that other people do not. You wish them to start to ignore DUB as established musical genre. Right? Maybe not. But if you wish them to do what you think they should - you get NEGATIVE reaction. People may tell you: "Sorry man, we like it as is and as we know it" I like your root-tree visualisation. It's beautiful. There's a little detail there for not to overlook: if the root is of apple tree - then APPLES shall be on the branches, but not oranges Well, maybe it would be nice to have all sorts of stuff on that tree. You are saying, that you are not saying, that DUB is anything, while you are saying that DUB is DUB regardless of what 'kind of music' it is. Well, what do you expect me to think about what you may mean by that. Where is the "line" not to cross? How do you define it. When you say "othere" than just REGGAE music. Does it mean absolutely ANY KIND OF MUSIC. If not, then who is going to draw this line? You? or Me? or who? If you mean absolutely ANY kind of music - then you've pointed it to COSMOS - there's no limits for musical forms, so it simply means - ANYTHING. So you see, man, I know it maybe hard to handle, but you end up in THE NOTHING. Or is it all about attitude and belief in freedom of artforms? That's cool. All you need to do is: GO YOUR OWN WAY, and you do not need to name/call your art-form by some 'old' term and then start and keep the "fight" for it <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)">. Create and attouch your own name/term to your art-form (call it genre or whatever your creative cerebral innovations may come out with). OK, sure, at the end, since it's about freedom, you can call your new art form DUB period. And go with it. That's what you are trying to do. Many musicians do the same. Some out of passion and love to actual DUB, some without any idea. It's not really a new 'fenomena'. We are still where we are. /respects, /Mike Zee, aka Dr.ZEE

helix resonator · Post by **helix resonator** » Thu May 15, 2003 8:14 pm

Hey Mike, I do not wish to ignore DUB as an established musical genre. Quite the opposite really. I feel as though you are misunderstanding me exponentially as this continues. That is not the genre snobbery i was talking about. I was merely refering to the isolationism that some are into who believe that the only DUB is DUB reggae and discredit other branches of the art form that represent where dub is now and where dub is going(reggae or not). Again I love Dub reggae and I love dub as well as many many other kinds of music. I don't have a problem with calling music dub if it obviously incorporates many of the mixing/production techniques and ideas that distinctly make dub what it is. Genres are just adjectives that help people associate things and find commonalities with others. And what ever type of music one decides to incorporate into their Dub, that is up to the individual and I wouldn't say that they will "end up in the NOTHING" cause they are trying new things. I think we are more likely to end up in the nothing by continuing on this thread. I would rather do more productive things with my time, like make dub music. I have work to do as I'm sure you do too. Peace, Miosotis

Mike Zee · Post by **Mike Zee** » Thu May 15, 2003 9:05 pm

OK, man, when ever you'll get a free minute within your 'more imortant' life rather than talking/communicating with others - come back ... do a big favor <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> Genres are just adjectives that help people associate things and find commonalities with others that's right. that's what it is. There's a term: DUB-FUSION - which is pretty clear. Mixing genres/styles of music is common thing - you get fusion. Experimenting deeper and more freelly - you get EXPERIMENTAL music. There's nothing wrong with making experimental music. The word 'experimental' maybe not so "cool" as word 'DUB' thou <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> Musicians and producers DO call their experiments by what ever 'popular' or 'established' genre. Why? There maybe many reasons for each individual producer. It is happenning in all genres: techno, house, jazz, rock... even classical - you name it. The 'conflict' between art-form genre and artist's creative process is inevitable. The very fact of establishing of any genre in art means that FIRST there IS the base for it (already exist), which means that there is some set of rules, call it: borders, call it restrictions... or call it simply 'expectations' ... or call it 'demands'. In music it comes first from performer/creator and popularity of his/her/their creation, which builds up a fan base. Then 'followers' sep in, who are trying to create in the similar way/style as 'originator' did ... and here you go: somebody someday will have to name it - attouch a word to it. It's done. Then it's your choice: as an artist/creator - you chose either to follow it either to breake out of it and go your own way. Conflict between 'establishment' and 'creativity' is inevitable, however conflict between an individual creator/artist and attouched to 'establishment' group of people is rather the result of ambitions, misunderstandings or what ever else personal reasons could be .... but it is avoidable. Anything established IS conservative by its nature. Innovation is TRUE when it goes its own way, gets its own face, its own title, its own home, its own family. The 'creature' who is trying to be who 'am-not' has a different name <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)">... and its name isn't 'innovation'. /best regards, and respects /Mike Zee, aka Dr ZEE

John Ellison IV · Post by **John Ellison IV** » Sun May 16, 2004 12:06 am

Okay...how can anyone confuse Dub,House,Big Beat and Discotech? Dub is a recording technqiue that is used to remix reggae songs. Echo, Reverb empahsis on the bass and kick ass effects are important. Also, melodic tendencies in the bass are key. House is the evolution of Disco. The key elemeonts of house are a 4/4 kick drum beat. The Bass in house music is known for more of a pumping and pulsating affair. Big Beat Is an evolution of House as well and a fusion of other forms of music which are. House Rock Funk It's also known as big dumb dance music...wow, that sort of sounds like punk. Discotech...sorry can't help you there.

JAH77clash · Post by **JAH77clash** » Fri Sep 03, 2004 6:47 pm

i think that dub-fusion fits best because we have dubwise house,raggajungle,electro-dub,downtempo dub. see it all comes from dub. some artist use dub simply as another word for instrumental. i think it isnt dub, if it has no reggae sound. i also like to look at it as some of the producers of electronica that borrow from reggae dub,are in fact honoring thier roots. just like rasta is the first. dub is the first. and if you deny your roots. you cannot stand firm with a solid structure.