i hope that someone will explain this difference to me in a clear way
<B>breakbeat</B>: a rhythm pattern created by cutting an existing natural drum beat into pieces (using a sampler or computer) and reassembling the parts in a different way. <BR><B>drum&bass</B>: sub-genre of techno music existing since the early nineties, originally based on breakbeats. also called "Jungle" sometimes. since around '97 completely sequencer-based electronic beats started to dominate the drum&bass scene therefore it does not make much sense to use the term breakbeat for it anymore. <BR><B>breaks</B>: short word for breakbeats
<FONT COLOR="ff0000">drum&bass: sub-genre of techno music</FONT> !!!!! <BR> <BR>NO NO NO , man, I know it may be a sort of a "slide of'a'way of saying ...., but seriously, d'n'b has not sub/root connection to techno music. <BR>Actually people often confusing the word "techno" with almost about anything in electronic/computer/or what have-you "modern" musical 'genres'.... <BR>Even sure there are many cross influences between all of the genres , but really, techno has its own pretty much stand-alone branch, sort of speak. <BR>More to that, from point of view of "style" and feel of the music, techno is more "streight-forward pulsing groove oriented music", which much more rely on electro/synth sound than on "drum pattern structure and its variations", actually more to that, techno may even be seen as "anti-break" groove <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)">, in a sense. <BR>********* <BR>I have to add from myself, that to make it a bit less confusing, when trying to define musical genre/style in modern electronic music, then you better try not to look at technical side of the production, simply because nowdays techniques may be very similar, like using computers, samplers, loops etc etc ... it's just everywhere, from techno to rock .... <BR>******** <BR>So it is better to look into history first, and geography... and also try identify some specificas of the style, which are like a MARKS, which are always there and specific for a genre. <BR>********** <BR> <BR>fole, your question is a bit too hard to answer on a b-board. I can drop a few links to read: <BR> <BR><A HREF="http://www.ajax-timpani.com/rsa/history.html" TARGET="_blank">notes on d'n'b history</A>, there are some other stuff there... <BR><A HREF="http://www.globaldarkness.com/articles/ ... ss%202.htm" TARGET="_blank">A short history of Drum and Bass By Ben Gilman</A> <BR><A HREF="http://forum.breakbeat.co.uk/forum" TARGET="_blank">d'n'b b-board</A>, lots of blahhhh there <BR>************ <BR>from technical point there's no difference between break beat track or drum'n'bass track, well, in general, of course..... <BR>drum'n'bass tracks however have very specific focus and overall feel of the groove and using of "supporting" elements, such as synth, vocals, or any other extras and sound-effects. Also drum'n'bass has its own subgenres, which are pinting to more specifics, mostly regarding to its structure/groove feel and ambient/atmosphere. <BR>******** <BR>break-beat track is pretty much any track, which based on cuts of rhythm patterns. It's more of a free-form, as well. <BR>I think, you can say, that drum'n'bass is a form of break-beat. BUT, after you just say this, you may think, and say: "But, not really...", heh heh , because, again, you can say this only from "technical" point.... <BR>******** <BR>Visit: <A HREF="http://www.raw42.com" TARGET="_blank">www.raw42.com</A>, <BR>it's a good recourse for a info, music etc.... <BR> <BR>/respects <BR>/Mike Zee <BR><A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/music2/mikezee/zdl.html" TARGET="_blank">Z-D-L</A>
Thx for the education Mike ;-) !! <BR> <BR><A HREF="http://www.kocha.fr.st" TARGET="_top">KoCha</A>
KoCha, i'm not an "educator" ..heh heh ... also I know myself a little less than a little..., simply because of "history" and "musicology" of electronic music is like a huge net in time and space...really, I'm not trying to be poetic, it's just way out of hands, and really too much to hendle by a single brain. Not to mention, that many aspects of history, musicology and genres in electronic music are always subjects of very interpretations, and often the so called "history of this" or "history of that" also reflects the views of the person who writes the "history" more than actually reflects the reality. However, if you just read through you at least may get some general idea, but never take everything as IS. <BR>One thing is for sure: musicians/producers always were and are influenced by each other (regardless of musical genres). Evolutions within a musical genre (as result of cross influences) may more reflect simply the moods, tastes and winds of time (say it like: what's cool at the moment, you know), than any specific "rule of genre". Another words, moods and sense of time across all genres is a force which "breaks the rule", and then we may be witnessing a "fenomena of new genre birth", which also may be an illusive act, but we rush to give it a new name and feel good, becoming fans of something, which we've just "established" for our own pleasure <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)">..... <BR>I'd recommend to read one more article on subject of "history" of techno, which is on of my fav., because it sort of reflects how "cross influences" work, also give you some sense in time how and where the "roots" of techno-music are coming from, also this is a subject of discussions, and even fights ..heh heh <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)">. <BR>Someone once has said: "Techno was born in 90-s in Detroit"...and everybody said: "YEAH!!!!!"... <BR>Which I don't think has anything to do with reality. However, the "truth of the moment" is what's most people think... so there...<IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> <BR>Here's the link to article: <A HREF="http://music.hyperreal.org/library/machine_soul.html" TARGET="_blank">MACHINE SOUL - A History Of Techno by Jon Savage</A> <BR>********** <BR> <BR>later, guys, <BR>/respects <BR>/Mike Zee <BR><A HREF="http://www.mp3.com/mikezee" TARGET="_blank">MZE-ZDL music</A>
<FONT COLOR="ff0000">"NO NO NO , man ... d'n'b has not sub/root connection to techno music"</FONT> <BR>Mike: Of course you can trace back Drum&Bass to Dub and Reggae if you want to. There even was a time when tracks like Shy FX' "Original Nutter" were huge and brought together the "Techno" and the Reggae side. But that was back in 94'.. 8 years ago! Since then Drum&Bass split up in different subgenres. At least in my area the Drum&Bass tunes played at parties nowadays will hardly remember you of it's Jungle/Reggae origins (Many D&B heads will tell you that "Raggajungle" was just a bullshit phase in D&B history). <BR>That's why for me Drum&Bass is a techno subgenre. <BR> I was running a series of Ragga/Drum&Bass crossover parties together with friends here in Zurich for years. At the beginning we had a lot of people in the crowd who liked both styles and we really had ONE party. But over the years the styles drifted apart more and more and we ended up with a crowd split in a part which doesn't like Reggae and a part which does not like Drum&Bass.. <BR> <BR>I use "Techno" as a term for all "machine driven" music (electro, d&b, trance, prog. house) opposed to "people driven" music (Reggae, Dancehall, Dub, Soul, Rock..).
<FONT COLOR="ff0000">I use "Techno" as a term for all "machine driven" music</FONT> <BR>Daniel, I know what you mean. Not only You use 'techno' this way nowdays. Which is fine, as a general term. But, c'mon, you can't mean it in term of actually "genre of electronic music", unless you completely ignore everything, and just say what ever you feel like. I know personally people in my area , guys who are producing electronic music since ages back, and they call "techno" pretty much any electronic music ...from house through trance and what have you. <BR><FONT COLOR="ff0000">Many D&B heads will tell you that "Raggajungle" was just a bullshit phase in D&B history</FONT> <BR>heh heh, this is true true true. I know many guys like that. Which , well, I don't know...what really to say. I would not fight over this, simply because there's no reason for it. <BR>Also I have to mention, that nowdays the speed of "new blood entering" in electronic musical production is so high.... guys are starting making tracks using what ever they can get hands on...most of the time it starts straight from ACID, FL, and alike.... and they are messing around with vary of samples, sounds, loops, breakes... nobody gives a crap about what you're are making.... and they don't give a crap about "genres"...actually even often being very proud ...calling themselves - "innovators, revolutionaries...blah blah, creative minds... etc... <BR>With computer you can produce stuff without any connection to actually any kind of musical knowledge. Just try this button, try that app, push this, apply that, cut/paste - render- burn..... and see what's pleasin' your ear or brain... or a** <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)">. <BR>***** <BR>The bottom line is, it's all up to you... <BR>You can try to keep up with some knowledge... or you can do and say what ever you wish... <BR>I don't really know what's better... <BR>not sure if I care anymore... heh heh <BR> <BR>/respects, <BR>/Mike Zee
I Love that "bullshit phase in D&B history." Becoz it was a blend - of slow dub riddims and fast, chopped-up beats. Now D&B just bores me. One loop repeated incessantly with no riddim. No fun. No skill needed. Might as well you be dead. <BR> <BR>Even tho Jungle brought the reggae and techno heads togadder it din't appeal to the masses, and all tings fall to the common denominator. What was good becomes bland. Cha. <BR> <BR>Peace.
well said, sata. exactly my opinion.
To be honest, I don't really have a clue what you guys are talking about. I only listen to reggae, and I think I'd get sick if I had to listen to too much electronic music. <BR> <BR>But don't you all agree that sometimes, labelling music can go a bit too far? <BR>Well, it might seem a bit contradictory seeing as I just said I only listen to reggae (which is a slight overstatement, slight mind you), but I think labels are okay provided they donn't go overboard and you have legitimate reasons for the label. Such as waltz. A waltz has certain distinct characteristics. As does reggae. <BR> <BR>The problem with this is you come across things like Redemption Song. Do you consider Redemption Song a reggae song? I feel a lot of people will say absolutely, but I think no. It doesn't have any of the typical characteristics, which I compiled on another forum: <BR> <BR>Rythym guitar on the 2 and 4 beats. <BR> <BR>Drum pattern, ie a One Drop or Flyers pattern. <BR> <BR>An organ shuffle. <BR> <BR>Percussion. <BR> <BR>A melodic bassline. <BR> <BR> <BR>I'd like to hear all of your opinions on this. I mean it's all bullshit really, but I find it interesting nontheless.
Definitions are always a personal thing. And words are often clumsy and inadequate. (Which is why we make music, cah words cyaan say everyting.) <BR> <BR>As to reggae borders - Peter Tosh say reggae was in the beginning and the end. All music come from reggae. Personally I call all reggae's variations "reggae" whether Ska, Dancehall, Jungle, Rockers, Roots, etc. What reggae actually is I won't give a concrete definition but when I listen to music I look for de reggae element/feeling in it. <BR> <BR>Reggae is Sufferer's music. The form is not as important as the spIrit. <BR> <BR>Jah Love.
<FONT COLOR="ff0000">Reggae is Sufferer's music. The form is not as important as the spIrit.</FONT> <BR> <BR>Well, guys, you see, I know what's the point here, and it's fine with me, if You(we) STILL stay within some sort of "borders" of common sense. <BR>Definitions in musical genres can be sure a "personal thing", but think about this: <BR>If I am going to waltz around with Mickey Mouse and sing the "song of my suffering" and then call it - REGGAE....., what would you say to me. I'd think, you'll say: "Hey, Mike, you gotta see your phsy-doctor as soon as possible" ... heh heh <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> <BR> <BR>funny or not, but some todays electronic-music producers do thing like that, - create something and call it whatever..., and leave the listener 'scratching his/her head'.... <BR> <BR>/respects <BR>Mike Zee
and, yeah, speaking of some "modern drum'n'bass forms". Have you heard so called drum n'bass tracks with NO Bass at all in it??? <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)">... You know those tracks, which has some sort of "jentle drum patterns..., rolls, rushes etc..." and some spacy synth or what ever can fly around it.... <BR>These kind of drum'n'NO'bass tracks more sound like brushing teeth, while dreamin' of a better place to be at the moment, than your bathroom ...heh heh .... <BR> <BR>later, <BR>/respects <BR>/mike Zee
"..drum n'bass tracks with NO Bass at all in it.." <BR>oh yes i remember.. they called that "intelligent drum&bass" at the time by the way hahaha. <BR>one of the tunes which started that craze around '96 was pulp fiction by alex reece, not a bad tune at all i dare to say.
<FONT COLOR="ffff00">"intelligent drum&bass"</FONT> - <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> - LOL .... <BR> <BR>Daniel, there's also Intelligent Techno, you know.... Actually I never could understand the whole deal about "intelligent" this and "intelligent" that thing. But it's there, so be it... <BR>I actually thought, that "bassless d'n'b" is somewhere in so-called "atmospheric drum n'bass".... <BR>BTW, it's true, that there are allots of really interesting and cool productions ...., it IS kind of strange that something totally basseless still can be seating under drum n'bass roof...well, again, words words words... <BR>So, I guess, it works like this: windy atmosphere is blowing and washing away all the bass and actually drums as well, so there're only memories a traces of it left, and it's sounds like a gentle brushing in space of your widely opened intelligent mind ... <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> <BR> <BR>Actually, I think, I've heard of so called "drum n'space"... or am I making it up? ..heh heh, so you really need to be pretty intelligent to be able to fill the space with bass out of your own imagination, while the brushes and scratches are taking you away .... <BR> <BR>, <BR>ok, <BR>;\ <BR>later, guys, <BR>respects, <BR>/Mike Zee
When I write a song I don't give it a genre and confine it to that. If the music takes a dif'rent form and it works then I go with it. Come to think of it, most of the time I do sit down to write something specific it mutates into something else. <BR> <BR>Genres are just something applied by journalists and record stores to (supossedly) make it easier for (unadventurous) consumers. <BR> <BR>Let's face it, you could pick up an album listed under Dub with all the Dub elements but it just doesn't grab you. Then you might hear some classical piece (for instance) and it speaks to you. The genre is not important, the music is. <BR> <BR>Respect.
A likkle perspective on why I don't see genres as important. <BR> <BR>I've lived and worked in rural Australia for several years and when I say I produce Dub ppl jus look at me blankly. If I mention Reggae they might think for a while then say "Oh, Bob Marley." It's like Bob is a genre of music to some ppl. BTW "root" in Oz is a euphamism for sex, so if I told ppl I mek Roots music I think I'd just mislead them. <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> <BR> <BR>Words funny boy. <BR> <BR> <BR>Jah Love
Sames in my rural switzerland... Sata Weeva ;) <BR> <BR>People don't know dub... But fortunaltly they know bob marley, and it's the only reggae singer they know. But they interested in what i say when i speak about dub. <BR> <BR>Oh but here root don't mean sex lol! <BR> <BR><A HREF="http://www.kocha.fr.st" TARGET="_top">KoCha</A>
KoCha, You must explain Dub better than I&I. How do you explain to people who have no idea about the recording process what Dub is? <BR>I usually say it is Reggae with effects on it but, of course, that nah do it justice. <BR> <BR>Love Peace and Inity.
There's no way to explain what's dub is to a person who has no idea about reggae music, or even if the person's idea of reggae is "No Woman No Cry" ... and this is it. (well, it's a good point to start thou .. <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)">) <BR>Now, most "mid"-age people have pretty good idea about reggae music, 'cos they lived through "reggae's world ride"..., however some newer generation boys and gals actually have absolutely no idea about what's reggae is... it's just true. <BR>To say: "Dub is a specifically remixed reggae song, with vocals "cut-outs" and accent of rhythm (bass and drums), applying effects, mostly delay (echo-like repetitions) on vocal and leading instrumentals (commonly)" would do pretty good for any person who has an idea about reggae songs/music. You can add to it that some dub(s) are actually originally written, recorded and produced instead of re-mixing an original version of some reggae-song, but the result is similar. <BR>Of course, the best way is to actually hear the sound/example than listen to somebodie's words about it.... <BR>******** <BR>well, we have another topic here about what's dub, btw.... <BR>old conversation .. heh heh <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> <BR>all I can say is: <FONT COLOR="ff0000">there's no dub without reggae.</FONT> <BR>Dub (as genre of music and <FONT COLOR="ffff00">surrounding it culture!</FONT> (I may even say a "cult" <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)">), simply would not exist if it was not for reggae.... silly stuff, isn't it? <BR>I know, I know... dub this ...dub that, blah blah.... <BR>*********** <BR>and again, repeting myself.... to define musical genre you just have to look into history, culture and fans/listener's community - that's how to really understand any musical genre. <BR>And of course LISTEN to examples, don't just read about it. <BR>Musical structure (from traditional musical point of view) and production techniques are just a portion of the whole picture, and often actually have no specifics for some genres, or can be applied on vary genres, which are way way away from each other. Like house, drum'n'bass and dub all can be structured as reggae based (as starting point), use the same techniques of production ... but they are all totally different creatures. <BR>Especially production techniques! You know, every producer use EQ... does it mean that equalization makes vary musical genre similar from that point?????, every poducer does RECORD. Right? Is recording actually a part of techniques? Well, everything is just music, after all, right? I know, I'm stressing out the issue here... but I am just trying to highlight the point. <BR>Are genres important? hmmmm, I'm not sure why even ask this kind of question. They just are what they are - musical genres. It's like to say: "I don't care what kind of car I drive, as long as it runs"...., but there are still automatic or stick-shift, front or back drive, sport-cars and family cars etc etc.... different "car-genres", it's just there, they are all just cars, sure <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> <BR> <BR>BTW, the fact that house, techno, dub, d'n'b tracks etc... are being used/played at the same dance/club party by a DJ does not make all these genres the same, or groups them somehow into what ever-group just because of the fact, that they are being played under the same club's roof... <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)">, even if the DJ say: "Ahhhh, my mon, you know, I don't care 'bout genre-t'ing, you know, I just play a mix of all sorts of 'KULL' techno-stuff" ....lol <BR> <BR>best regards, <BR>and respects, <BR>/Mike Zee