has anyone here heard of artists like pole or kit clayton? <BR>they are taking elements of traditional dub and infusing them with self-constructed computer programs that allow them to do wild dsp tricks and algorithmic music. i know that kit clayton uses a program called max\msp that allows you to build instruments using very low level components. he basically codes an algorithm that can make a constantly evolving dub track. i think it's fascinating, but i can imagine that some of the more 'old school' dubbers would find this artificial. i'm using a program called reaktor to do basically the same thing (albeit less successfully). what do you guys think? <BR> <BR>oh yeah, i HIGHLY recommend you all check out pole's album called "3" and kit clayton's album called "nek sanalet".
all depends on what the producer puts down at the end. Is the producer a skilled computer programmer or is he just a lucky garage-sale shopper in hunting for the 'tools' - it does not matter at all, as I can tell... <BR> <BR>on Pole (3) - it has really nice'n deep sounding segments of dub, but really for the overall focus and main meat fo this art I'd would define it as experimental noise/groove. The good thing about the album is that it is very solid, another words, the author knows what he wants, not just messing around with what ever may come out. I really hardly call it dub thou. There's not much there for dub-listener, while there's allot there for experimental electronic music listener. <BR> <BR>/respects, <BR>/Mike Zee
yeah, it's a stretch to call it dub, but i can't think of any other influence in his music that is more dominant. (except for experimental techno, of course) <BR> <BR>you really think there isn't much there for the dub listener? i think most would find quite a few things to like about it... as long as they weren't expecting a king tubby record. : )
Matt, this conversation links to general discussion about 'what is dub' <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)">, well, again and again. So just trying not to go THERE, if it is possible, I'd say: General (or most) dub listener expects (or better yet to say demands) pretty much clear riddm/groove - this is like something absolutelly must, to sound itself (from instrumentation point of view: ie is it traditional reggae-band based track or electronic instrument/sample-playback sequenced track) is a secondary element, but it just has to be "generating to ridm/groove in your face". <BR>If it does not, or if the groove is sort of "washed off" or way too blended into ambient/or what ever other possible sound environment (noise, chanting, sound effects etc etc), then a 'dub-listener' simply feels that the production does not CUT THROUGH, sort of speak, if not to say more: dub-listener simply may have a real hard time to go through ambientish/noise slow-morphing segments of development - it's just plain boring, you know what I mean. <BR>If I would write review of "3" I would recommend this album to ambient/experimental/noise-groove listener, but not to dub listener. <BR>Of course, there's no such thing as 'ideal pure dub-listener', people may like/enjoy vary musical genres/styles the same time. <BR>I think, when artist creates some sort of fusion-production, the only way to try to define it is to try to hear/see/feel the main foucus (which I call as "Main Carrier Of The Artistic Expression") of the production, like album as a whole. Another words, dub isn't really the instrument of expression for Pole, but sound-design, blend of noise and sounds, developing this blend into groove IS. <BR> <BR>/respects, <BR>/Mike Zee
Most electronic music these days just sound cheap, to me. 15 years back when House and Techno started (or emerged from the underground) the use of synths and samples seemed innovative. But nowadays too many ppl are making electro music becoz they can not coz they have anything to say or real talent. <BR> <BR>One of the great things about Dub is its mixture of organic and electronic. Putting well played and well written songs thru electronic devices (controlled by madmen <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> ) takes the sound to new ground. With "electronic dub" it tends to be electronics thru electronics, the contrast and tension is lost. <BR> <BR>I think it takes something special to make electronic music sound worthwhile. Usually it takes the charisma of the programmer to fuel it and guide it somewhere good. <BR>There have been performers who make very basic songs using basic synths and overlaying seemingly nonsense lyrics and yet their charisma carries it. <BR> <BR>It's what you put into your endeavours... <BR> <BR> <BR>Peace.
ah... i see what you mean mike zee. <BR> <BR>in my case, i've grown up with experimental music and recently started moving into dub territory. i guess the reason i can't see why a lot of dub listeners would find this kind of music strange or alienating is because it all seems so natural to me. if i had started out with dub and then moved onto pole and kit clayton type music i'd probably think of it quite differently. <BR>i wasn't trying to start an argument over what dub is or isn't, but merely bringing up a topic that might spark people's interest in more noisey\ambient music. <BR>haha, maybe i'm on the wrong messageboard. <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)">
matt, you're on the right message board. welcome.. ;-)
Right! This b-board actually maybe the only place (as I know) where you have a chance to discuss this specific question/issue with somebody who sort of care and sort of knows what he/she is talkin' about. Well, there are couple dub-related boards also where dub-hads are hangin' around, but you most likely will get either some sort of "This is absolutely No-Dub"-reaction or simply guys will have no idea what you're talking about, it's like: "Talk about Lion-King or don't talk at all"-type of places ..heh heh <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> <BR>Sure there are prolly many electronic music discussion-boards out there where you may find the whole bunch of people who do deeply appreciate Pole and similar producers, but as for my experience, most guys (with maybe few exceptions) in electronic music communities have a very "windy"-image if any idea at all about dub-music, its history, culture and fan-base. <BR> <BR>So, just what Daniel (Interruptor) said: "You are in the RIGHT place" <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> <BR> <BR>/respects, <BR>/Mike Zee <BR><A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/music2/mikezee/zdl.html" TARGET="_blank">ZDL</A>
this place seems extremely knowledgeable... and friendly, too! <BR>i think i'll stick around. <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)">
I-tings all, <BR> <BR>I just found this board a couple a days ago, looking for sources of dub-formation and I gotta comment on this electronic/organic question some small. I've been working on a dub project with a couple of guys, doin' live drum + bass tracks and then layering stuff on top of it. Even though we are recording on pro tools, we decided that on this one there'll be no sequencing, no digital editing (such as copying or cutting sections etc.) I don't know if that makes any practical sense (playin' riddim guitar track for 5 minutes, when a 4-second loop would do), but somehow I feel it right on some emotional level for the more rootsy riddims. <BR> <BR>Anyway, the other guys working with me are also very much into electronic dub, whereas I'm more of a roots man in my tastes, and this has had me thinkin' about why it is that live riddims appeal to me more. This is something that is difficult to put in words, because the reasons are not necessarily very tangible, but I'll try anyway. <BR> <BR>I've identified at least two factors. First is that I love that skanky, swingin', booty-bouncing feel of a live riddim track, that not-exact-but-perfect groove connection which rarely exists in electronic music (actually, I just got Scientist's 'Rids the world...' album and found even those riddims - live by Root Radics! - a bit too straight and somehow 'sterile' for my taste. I guess sayin' that makes me a dub heretic, but what can you do...) <BR> <BR>The other thing is more abstract, more esoteric and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with music. I just feel personally, that listening to a live riddim, I get to experience a little fragment of what those players experienced in that recording studio, laying down that track, I can imagine the sweat on the drummer's brow, the bassman diggin' deep on those strings, the guitars and keys skankin', everybody feeling good about kickin' some wicked styles... And I personally just don't often get that extra something - a vibe, a connection - listening to sampled stuff. I'm not saying that I lacks soul because it's not played by real people - I know that real people are behind the music, no matter what the tools - but I just feel that for me, that more immediate connection between the players' vibe and my listening experience gives something extra that I feel very deeply. <BR> <BR>One love, <BR> <BR>Rootz
NO DIGITAL EDITING <BR>It's the key to transmit good vibes. <BR>Because music is human and when a musisian is playing he enjoy it,it's a sexual/ mystical stuff! <BR>You can feel it in the music. <BR>It is my personnal mean for "groovin'",it doesn't mean you don't respect the tempo : your are doing <BR>the same thing but you never do the same thing(especially in reggea music!) <BR>This contradiction is the musician feeling and i think that reggea is a lot off feeling with a <BR>apparent simple compo. <BR>respect <BR>aleph
well said rootzilla.. i find myself with the same feelings about sequenced vs. live rhythms.
Quoting Aleph: <BR> <BR>"it doesn't mean you don't respect the tempo : your are doing the same thing but you never do the same thing" <BR> <BR>Exactly. With some of the best grooves, the time and the tempo are at the same time very exact and very flexible, yuh stretch it a likkle, yuh crunch it a likkle, all inna rightful place. <BR> <BR>One love, <BR> <BR>Rootz
Perhaps u feel the same thing i feel with 4/4 <BR>based music rootzilla(it's difficult to explain for me in english):when i hear/play reggea music(for me it is the skank) the first measure got his own way <BR>to be played , the second one..... <BR>THe fifth one is like the first one..... <BR>It's really a magic circle isn't it! <BR>My favourite is the fourth one ,it's like an end <BR>going to the beginning! <BR>The time runs always at the same speed but i <BR>feel like a "time zoom" at this place.(probably hard for you to follow me(:-))
Yes, good points Rootzilla. Each person's mood and pulse is different, every day, and so no two performances will ever sound exactly alike. This is what I think makes recording live playing - with all its imperfections - infinitely more exciting than loops (not that loops can't have their place). No group ever plays in perfect synchronicity, and it's those little tensions -- who bends a guitar string exactly the same way twice? - that make it all worthwhile. Peace to all. Dan
Aleph, what you said the second time, although it was quite crazy, actually made sense to me. <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> <BR> <BR>Personally, I am only a fan of the old stuff; practically all the music I listen to is 60s/70s Jamaican stuff. I find "electronic" music of all types to be quite difficult on the ears. <BR> <BR>A large part of it is definitely the improvisational feel, and the fact that, at times, it can sound like a band jamming and a few mics lieing around the place. <BR> <BR>The natural feel of the music is a large part of what i enjoy about it. Even though there are a lot of overdubs on a lot of the stuff I listen to, I think the <I>lack of quality</I> makes it sound better. <BR> <BR>Good stuff indeed. <BR> <BR>bin_ez
I love this 60/70jamaican music too(ethiopians,upsteters...) <BR>Some people say i'm crazy but that's why i use deck <BR>, recorder.. from this period ,this lack of quality <BR>is in the sound too.
Aleph for me it's not lack of quality but WARMING THE SONG!! <BR> <BR>Sequanced VS Live... impossible for sequanced to win.. or perhaps with "Humanization" (i just discovre today in my tracker...) <BR> <BR>And electro have a DIFFERENT vibes than acoustic or sampled accoustric sound. <BR> <BR>You can love both.. both can be based on the same rythm but the vibes and the feeling is totaly different!! <BR> <BR>Happy to read all your text dubhead! <BR> <BR> <BR>Jah bless, <BR> <BR>KoCha <BR>soon open : www.almighty-dub.com
Off course these songs are warmy !But not as "clean" as today productions. <BR>"Humanization" cannot produce a musician feeling <BR>because his effect is aleat. <BR>respect, aleph
Yes I, <BR> <BR>Aleph, I don't know whether it is always like that, from 1st to 4th bar, but yeah, that is one very strong cycle in much of western popular music (I don't know about the other traditions). But in addition to that, I think one of the things that makes live riddim breathe in an unique way is that all the players observe these cycles (one-bar, 2-bar, 4bar, 8-bar, 16-bar etc.) in their own way, and at the same time, are affected by the other player's interpretations of these cycles in real time. So, say the bass player is feeling the 8-bar cycle strong, and all of the sudden the drummer does an accent in the end of the 4-bar. The bassist catches on with the drummers feel and that creates unique tension and release... I don' tknow, this is getting really involved... <BR> <BR>For me as a listener, however, equally important is actually the _thought_ of the people playing in the same room. Like bin_ez wrote, you feel like you're almost eavesdropping on the people playing, getting that small snippet of reality packed into the time capsule we call record... <BR> <BR>As far as the 'lack of quality' argument goes... I think part of this is also the same kind of romantic association as with the previous point. When we hear the old time dubs with all their imperfections and the 'warm' sound (which is produced by the old equipment because the engineers could not make it to reproduce sound accurately, anyway) we associate that sound with some sort of idealised vibe we want to equate with 70's Jamaica. We want to hear that exotique, we want to hear the 'old Jamaican' sound, because it lets us to live likkle bit of our own idea of what those times were like, project our own fantasies a bit... <BR> <BR>One Love, <BR> <BR>Rootz