...the need to 'capture' is such a voyeuristic tendancy in man...hardcore photographers seem to be the most brave carrying cameras 24-7...it is about evoking the ambiance/atmosphere of the moment, passing on knowledge of an event for future generations and for others to experience their own experience...it is the same with recording a live jam session...it never sounds like it does in the room...but does that mean it shouldn't recorded?...somethymes...somethymes magic cannot be recorded and must stay free in the unknowable spontaneous realm... <BR>...i agree though with you point about the 'old vs new scenario' because in the bigger picture they are connected and not entirely seperate phenomenon...for instance the binary codes can be seen to be present in all matter (ie. DNA)...liking a particular sound depends on your predilections...some will say they like digital simulation of organs, effects etc. better because they feel they can control even more subtle nuiances in frequencies...but the task of an artist is to find their own medium and genre...there will always be 'traditionists' and they try to evoke what they feel is 'authentic' and there will be those that feel that the orginal artform is in an ongoing transformation forever in dynamic fusion with other styles and influences...i mean DUB musik was so advanced as it was and so free too...clips of cows mooing, sirens, whistles, cut ins of incomplete verses, it is such a futuristic artform incorporating everything in the environment... <BR>...we have no choice but to move on because the genre itself forces us to... <BR> <BR>...Om shanti, shanti, shanti... <BR>...with peace in the heart, mind and soul... <BR>...let us bring peace to earth between humans...
Yes I, <BR> <BR>I hope we won't need to have any confrontation... Ca' that lead to iration... <BR> <BR>I wasn't really makin' any statement for or against the use of spring reverb - a real one or a digital simulation - I was just raising sum questions, and I didn't mean to make it sound like I know the answers. The reason I brought these questions up is that I ponder them quite often, bein' really in love wit that old-time sound, and tryin' to figure out where is the right balance between 'authentic' and 'derivative'. I don't know. I don't claim to know. I'm just wondering. <BR> <BR>I don't know if this is relevant to anything, but Sacha mentionin' photography brought it to my mind... A year ago I was in Ghana, and we made a trip to some caves, with a guide. All the way, the scenenry was really beautiful and the guide was askin' me why am I not takin' any pictures of it. And my answer to him was that god made the scenery, but man made the camera. And I didn't feel that scenery is going to translate, if I try to capture it on the film. Also, you could peep what I have said about live recording in the thread about electronic dub, that's also somehow relevant... <BR> <BR>Mike, I like the way you put it: <BR> <BR>"using a new computer program trying to get (or even actually getting) the effect of an old real real spring reverb ... it's just not using a real spring reverb in your studio production." <BR> <BR>On the other hand, it's not negative either, and if you feel it gets the job done, fine. That's ultimately what matters. And of course, not all of us have the choice all the time. And I think it's also good to remember that we don't need all the options, I think Lee Perry had a 8-tracker towards the end of Black Ark, but he still used the old 4-track more, 'cuz he liked that better. So, whatever does it _for you_, is what you should be using. <BR> <BR>One Love, <BR> <BR>Rootz
<FONT COLOR="ff0000">I hope we won't need to have any confrontation... </FONT> <BR> <BR>Yeah, i mean - NO! <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> heh heh <BR>I mean, I've used the word 'confrontation', just to point out, that (in my openion) subject/discussion about digital effects (or digital sound modeling) does not need to becom a sort of discussion "old (retro) vs new (modern, progressive, futuristic)" <BR>And if I happened to believe that digital modeling of a spring reverb will never happen - it does not mean I am speaking against technology. I am just speaking from paractical point. I guess it is technically possible to 'cpmpletely' digitize a 'spring reverb unit', but, man, it is not going to be a cheap simple project at all, and thus it does not look possible (cos' who's gonna pay for it? NASA? - I kind of don't think so ...). If a spring reverb plug-in will be sold for $500 - who is goin to buy it? You can get a real one for 20-50 bucks <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> <BR>If to go into futuristic fantasy, my guess would be, that digital(software based) sound-processors and sound-synthesizers will be not as much as ready to use models of some specific Real-Analog-World units, gear or situation (space, like room, hall, basement, cathedral etc...), but it maybe a some creation-tool(s) software, which will let user to actually create or construct the "what-ever it may be in user's mind"... another words, imagine a software-tool which is a lab for creation of vary analog-world objects, electrical devices, ambients etc... And again, the whole exitement about it is not that you can duplicate something what you can have as a real thing at your studio, but rather something which does not exist nor can exist... well, I know I am a bit off the line here..., but you've got the point ;) <BR> <BR>To add up to the point of 'capturing a moments' on film or audio-tape <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> <BR>I was trying to do both. Well, not much, but mostly as hobby and as a part of some audio-production. What I've noticed is: that it never works as expected while you are on the "hunt". Another words, let's say when you are out there with photo-camera, and you see/find an absolute visual beauty - and when you try to catch it - nop - it comes out something totally un-expected - dull, flat, boring, emty. And on the other hand, when you try to take a sort of different perspective when looking at things, objects etc... and you make shots of something which may look totally common, but at "right angle, right target, light and cut-off" it turns out to be an absolute impressive and even powerful piece of art. <BR>The same thing with sounds. My favorite example is a sound of summer-night forest with millions of insects and other living beings choral - this is a one kind of sound you can only experience in reality. If you try to capture it - you'll get a some thin and anoying noise, even if you use top equipment. On the other hands, you can use a very lo-fi simple recordings (sounds, scratches, noises or what ever) and in studio to create a very powerful textures, just by using a chain of simple effects and re-recordings. <BR> <BR>************ <BR>ok, hah, can we blah about this stuff forever or what...? <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> <BR>btw, THANK YOU everybody for taking time speaking out here, it sure a very interesting read and to know what you think/feel.... <BR> <BR>best regards, <BR>/respects <BR>/mz
Do what you love with what you can have for $$$ in this babylon world.. <BR>If can't get a things.. try to emulate it.... <BR> <BR>But if emulation is more expensive than the real things ? <BR> <BR>I think it's that for spring reverb... <BR> <BR>Just my mind all keep good vibes. <BR> <BR>See you. <BR> <BR>KoCha <BR>www.Almighty-Dub.com
i found a <A HREF="http://aulos.calarts.edu/pipermail/musi ... cussion</A> by people trying to emulate a spring reverb as a plug-in. <BR>authentic sounding spring reverb plug-ins might be closer than we thought.. ;-)
wow, Daniel, I was skimmin' quickly through topic(s) ... really interesting chating there <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> I gotta read later more with more attention. <BR> <BR>You know what's going through my mind first? It is , that 'spring reverb' isn't really a reverb in a sense what 'Reverberation' is. Spring is an electro-mechanical device which is a one of a kind thing, and so when trying to model it through DSP - you have to think totally about something different, which has nothing to do with 'Reverberation'.... see what I mean? ;) <BR> <BR>/later, <BR>/MZ aka DrZEE
I heard that the new reaktor/session line got <BR>a spring-reverb included,... it is told to be <BR>real nice from people at: www.kvr-vst.com <BR>(one of the forums, I mail from library and <BR>can´t link up right now) ,.. anyways reaktor <BR>is discontinued for me as challenge-response <BR>is suddenly implimented from 4.0, i hate it <BR> <BR>HM
yes HM, this is the <A HREF="http://www.kvr-vst.com/forum/viewtopic. ... 8472">page at kvr-vst</A> with the user comments on the spring plugin in reaktor session. <BR>and here is <BR><A HREF="http://www.nativeinstruments.de/index.p ... us">native instrument's own description</A>of the effect (see bottom of page). <BR> <BR>it would be interesting to know how this thing sounds when a basskick is sent through it!
here, just in case, if somebody here is reading all this stuff but feel like wish to get a basic ideas about 'Sound Waves physics', i've found a little "lesson": <A HREF="http://www.physicsclassroom.com/Class/s ... ndtoc.html" TARGET="_blank">Sound Waves and Music</A>, be sure to look at lesson-3 <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> <BR>again to my point, you see, spring reverb isn't really a device which 'physicly' modeling 'Reverberation'. What spring does to the 'wave' isn't what Reverberation does to 'sound wave' in any specific envirnment at all! <BR>Spring transforms (or say shapes) the wave in its own specific way. Now, add here the fact that physical air wave IS the sound and Reverberation does "treat" the sound within a specific environment the 'same way' (not really, but sort of <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)">), while metal spring DOES NOT treat different waves (signals) the same way ( characteristics of The INPUT shpe the spring's action (and thus shpe the treatment or The INPUT), so the output (result) depnds on and is specific only for this specific INPUT. Another words, spring reverb is a INPUT-"driven" processor...heh heh <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)">. So you can not really create a one set of 'commands' (application/program) which will work 'universally-correct' for any signal/sound/sample(digital wave) the same way as phical spring works. <BR>Well, I guess, in theory, it is possible to program the "shaping" of "application's parameters" depending on (in respond to) characteristics of INPUT wave. IT IS a real hard job thou ...., cos' you are not just programming the "treatment data recalculation" but also have to figure out and program how to dynamically adjust "treatment parameters" based on haracteristics-data of the incoming signal. If you think about how complex sounds are in dynamics - so there you have it - your hair ar sending up, and I'd say : "Happy Programming!" heh heh <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> <BR>BTW, it is the same for Reverberation, but we don't really think about it. I mean , when you apply some great hi-resolution DSP reverb (let's say 'large room') on different kinds of sounds, and you get some nice sounding "roomy" result - you just happy. But you don't think, that in real world in the same room you would not get the same Reverberation result for the same set of different sounds, because in real room different sound waves will also act and be treated differently, not as it happens "within" 'the application'. <BR> <BR>hope I make any sense here ...<IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> <BR> <BR>/Mike Zee, aka DrZEE
was looking into this a few months ago, the best one at the moment is the one which comes with amplitube vst. i think there is a degree of physical modeling to it.. but really there is so much nonlinearity happening in a spring reverb that you are MUCH better off using a real one
By the time Tubby, Perry and the others were dubbing music, as far as i know (but i'm not a specialist) they were usin' stuff they could find in Jamaica by their time. <BR> <BR>So am I when i look for a spring reverb plug in. The real one may be cool as long as you can find it in your local secondhand store, but as i m living in the countryside i never have found anything like that in my own town. On the opposite side, it is so easy for me to download a plug-in on the web... of course it won't be exactly the same thing as the real one but it will sound good enough to make i'n'i musically pleasure... <BR> <BR>For me, as i dont earn money by doing music, the most important thing when i do dub is the creativity. I m not a professional but a user with experience. In my big enough home studio of mine i record Reason arrangement with some live performence for a good dub music that i m proud of... I personnaly think that the new Reason Advanced-Reverb Unit with his spring reverb preset is good enough. <BR> <BR>Thanks for this interresting website...
i haven't found ANY vst reverbs which come anywhere close to emulating a real spring reverb <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... rt/sad.gif" ALT=":("> <BR> <BR>however, the freeware psp pianoverb can sometimes sound suitably BOINGY: <BR> <BR><A HREF="http://www.pspaudioware.com/" TARGET="_top">http://www.pspaudioware.com/</A>
darkflame23 , <BR>thanks for the link <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> ... I've got it and tested on some drum-loops. Hah! this is actually really good extra plug...sounds great for a freeware, btw. <BR>Well, I could not get any 'real-spring' like effect...however, you are right, with some settings the result is a VERY useful for dubbing. Really cool on snare... <BR> <BR>respects, <BR>/Mike Zee aka DrZEE
Pianoverb can do things a real spring <BR>can´t,...... like having a very clear <BR>and tweakable tonal resonance,....... <BR>CPU hog though, P4-bug is still in it, <BR>even my celeron <A HREF="mailto:600@950">600@950</A> it drains just <BR>being present one time, anyway its cool <BR> <BR>HM
There is a free convolving reverb plug in called 'SIR' for PC which samples reverb. I am sure that a spring reverb (impulse) will be sampled soon or is available somewhere - there are also other commercial convolving reverbs. For dub tape delay and spring reverb this is looking v.interesting. <BR> <BR>One love
I think Justice... is talking about this: <A HREF="http://www.knufinke.de/sir/left_en.html" TARGET="_blank">SIR</A>, check FQA there for general idea. <BR>Loks like it maybe hard to use. I can't tell, 'cos I don't use vst. <BR>Again, I may be very wrong here, but my thought is: the biggest problem with spring is that it does not do the same "thing" to different imput signals. So I gues, in theory, it is possible to apply the same idea as SIR, by sampling original signal, then 'through spring signal', than "filter out" original and get "information" and then apply what ever process, based on this "information"..... but it will not do the same as real spring, when you you apply the resulting process on different input signal, then the one which you used as 'sample'.... <BR> <BR>another words, spring 'treats' guitar in one way , but kik+rimshot - in totally different way <BR> <BR>well, I am going in 'circle' here ...i gues...he heh <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> <BR> <BR>/respects, <BR>/Mike Zee aka Dr. Zee
Daniel, I've installed demo version DX, and did quick try. Well, first of all I have to say that PSP makes really good plugs for what ever production use, sounding good, interface is nice, good presets etc. EasyVerb has ton of great presets. <BR>As for spring, I don't know. There are few presets there (typical, basic, short, long, guitar amp and fender spring(s)). Kinda ok, but again, I would not compare it with real spring, not to mention that when using real spring for dubbing the producer has the whole different approach on techniques than when 'creating' dubs on computer and thus the results are hard to compare, really comparing apples and oranges <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> <BR>OK, I've made a short mp3 file just to get some idea. I had to really go around the demo limitation, which inserts noise on process, so I had to open SForge and then also open another SForge app (screenblast), which would record soundcards mix output, so I could record the 'preview/result'... kinda pain in tha'*ss to do... <BR>So in this mp3 file: short organ chord(skank like), following by two EasyVerb spring presets, then I have short mix-loop, following by cuts/hits from the loop unprocessed and following by couple samples of processed throuch different spring-settings of the PlugIn (Loop-CutFrom Loop Dry-CutFromLoop Processed)... <BR>Just check it out, judge for yourself. <BR>Here's link: <A HREF="http://www.mzentertainment.com/music/EasyVerbDemo.mp3" TARGET="_blank">http://www.mzentertainment.com/music/Ea ... emo.mp3</A> <BR>Guys, if you want to check this demo - download it now (it's about 1MB 128kbps stereo mp3). I will not keep this file on the server for long, maybe for couple of days. <BR> <BR>Well, $100??? hmmmm, not so cheap. But then again, the plug is greate. To buy it just for this spring-immitation? ??? I would not. If you have 100bux to just through away, then sure go for it. <BR> <BR>/respects, <BR>/Mike Zee aka Dr. ZEE <BR><A HREF="http://www.mzentertainment.com/dub_lab.htm" TARGET="_blank">ZEE DUB LAB</A>
Daniel, I think this plug gets interesting rsult on bass-like hits... I would not say it's like real spring, but it gets nice vibe... You can hear it on the very last sample in the mp3, also good verb for snare hits... <BR>Well, again, the whole deal is to be able to use it in real time and experimenting where to apply it within the jungle-of-the-mix ;) <BR>******** <BR>One note: for guys who are advanced in computer-based production and have appropriate software. You actually can use limited demo version for processing short loops/samples/hits. To do this you need to have two applications oppened/running. It is possible in windows XP for sure, I don't know about w95/98/2000 ???? <BR>The idea is: open sample file in one audio editing program which supports DX or VST plugs. Select the part you wish to process, then go to your DX list, select EasyVerb. Then you have preview button. When you calick preview you hear processed output. The noise is being inserted every somewhat sec.... What you need to do id to open enother audio application which can record audio. (I had Sounforge 4.5 for processing and ScreenBlast SoundForge running the same time to record output). To make sure that you can record 'the system mix output' you need to double click the speaker on the bottom of your computer screen (in the task bar) - it will open your 'Master Volume' window, then click Options/Properties in menue, there select 'recording', then you see all available 'sources' list...select them all and click OK, now you see all sources as select/and level sliders "Recording Control". Now make sure that you select only "Stereo Mix" and all other are non-selected. Now set record level (not very hi). Keep this window open, because you may need to adjust this record level to avoid clipping. <BR>Now go to you recording application (second audio editing application). Start "NewFile", click "Record", before you actually start recording you need to set record level in you "Record Control". Start Recording.... <BR>So this way in general you can record what ever is playing on you computer, including PlugIn preview etc.... <BR>Again, in demo-version the noise is being applied periodicly, but you can keep recording untill you capture clean sound. Stop recording. Now select the prtion of clean processed sound and copy it. Start "New", paste.... you've got the processed sound. <BR> <BR>Well... is it usefull???? good question... <BR>Not useful as easy way or real time plug in, but advanced users can make processed samples this way for later construction of their productions .... <BR> <BR>Computer-based music-making is pretty complicated to begin with.... well, I'm not talking about easy-toy-remixing <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> <BR> <BR>later, <BR>/Mike Zee aka Dr. ZEE