DUB DISCUSSION BOARD

Hi all, <BR> <BR>have been dubbing for a while with an akai mpc2000xl, some lexi verb, a boss vf-1, alpha juno and some other bits... <BR> <BR>my question is whilst i can get some cool sounding dub delays and bass im having trouble programming the correct groove.... <BR> <BR>when i program i often stick the quantize on the beat keeping drum element to lay out the tempo etc, and then go and shift the notes til they sound right- the problem i have is i cant seem to find the right placements for that shuffly drum sound- any starter tempo's? time signatures? should i be using triplets? <BR> <BR>cheers <BR> <BR>greg

reggae drums with a swing feeling are usually not tripplets but something in between straigth and tripplet, mostly closer to straight than to tripplet. Often the swing feel comes more from the velocity variations of the different hits than from actually using a swing groove. <BR>i.e: Use louder hihat hits on the beat than in between the beats: <BR>" Z z Z z Z z Z " <BR> <BR>time signature: 4/4 <BR>typical bpm settings: <BR>120 - 140 BPM for "steppers" drums &#40;1 bass kick on each beat&#41; <BR>140 - 170 BPM for "one drop" drum patterns &#40;1 bass kick per bar, on the third beat&#41; <BR> <BR>Some people count reggae beats as half time. Then you have to use 60 - 70 PBM &#40;steppers&#41; and 70 - 85 BPM &#40;1 drop&#41; <BR> <BR>also see my hints on drum programming in my post on this discussion about <A HREF="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... 28.html">a dub by KoCha</A>

cheers mate, was having a play last night a realise whilst there is a definite groove its much more subtle than i thought...def not triplets..... <BR> <BR>also found i was writing a slow dub and it was in 160 bpm so this is all making sense...now i just need to crack that trippin' rhythm... <BR> <BR>cheers <BR> <BR>greg

oh yeah could you give us an example of a steppers tune- a lot of the dubs i listen must be the one-drop kind &#40;low on bass drums&#41; is the stepper kind like king tubby- bag a wire dub? <BR> <BR>greg

i don't remember "bag a wire". but lets try with 2 examples.. <BR> <BR>"steppers means" you have a bass drum hit on each beat &#40;same as in house or techno&#41; <BR> <BR>a simple example at 130 bpm &#40;1 bar&#41;: <BR> <BR><TABLE BORDER=1><TR><TD> </TD><TD>1</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>4 </TD></TR><TR><TD> hi hat </TD><TD>X</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>X </TD></TR><TR><TD> snare/rim</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>. </TD></TR><TR><TD> bass drum</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>X</TD></TR></TABLE> <BR>songs : <BR>burning spear - don't kill the lion <BR>the disciples - prowling lion <BR> <BR> <BR>"One drop" means only a bass drum hit on the third beat of each bar &#40;ca 160 bpm&#41;: <BR> <BR><TABLE BORDER=1><TR><TD> </TD><TD>1</TD><TD>2</TD><TD>3</TD><TD>4 </TD></TR><TR><TD> hi hat </TD><TD>X</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>X </TD></TR><TR><TD> snare/rim</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>. </TD></TR><TR><TD> bass drum</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>.</TD></TR></TABLE> <BR>similar as in: bob marley & the wailers - one drop <BR> <BR>of course there are usually variations especially in the hi hat and snare lines but this is just to point out the basic difference between 1 drop and steppers. <BR>hope that helps :-&#41;

cool. makes sense have listened to the marley track and yeah its all good... <BR> <BR>cheers for the help... <BR> <BR>greg

peace&bless, <BR>the realm of swing is the infinite space beetween straight 8 and "straight" triplet. <BR>as the master painter has a palette of numberless colors, the master drummer has it in the shades of swing. <BR>listen carefully to how many small -but clearly identificable- variations of the same groove carlton barret could hear and share. <BR>needless to say no machine could ever give you that. <BR>if you have to use a machine try to feel the groove and play it, no quantazing, until you get two decent bars: then loop it. <BR>give wi players of instruments our daily bread by hiring, or getting togheter with real musicians and enjoy the joy of sharing the blessings of music. <BR>one love.

if you use recycle and any of the major sequencers you could sample a small section &#40;a bar or less&#41; with the feel u want and create a groove template and quantise your part with that &#40;but with less than 100% quant...I like 25-50%&#41; <BR>this works for me.. <BR> <BR>but I find that banging it out live for a few bars and go back and find a good bit, then cut n paste that -- that works well too <BR> <BR>obviously never quite the same...

If u have eight patterns&#40;fruity loops&#41; on one bar do u make two kicks if u want to make one drop?

what do you mean by "eight patterns&#40;fruity loops&#41; on one bar"? do you mean eight beats? <BR> <BR>a pattern for me is a complete drum snippet &#40;bass drum, snare, hihat&#41;of one or more bars in length.

But what should i then call the empty places u put the dots? =S Cause they are in one &#40;like u mean&#41; pattern eight or sixteen dots to place and if u have eight dots to place, should u put two kicks and two snares and if u have sixteen dots to place should u put four kicks and four snares in an equal space from each other... <BR>Jah bless if u could help

he-he ... we do call things by "things" in the 'swing of things' and we are'not shy 'bout it... <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":&#41;"> <BR>anyhow.... <BR>without going through terminology jungle and stuff... If I understand correctly what Daniel Eriksson is about here. Daniel... in so called "eight-pattern" &#40;drum-machine or old school sequencer 'style'&#41; - you have "choice" to see it as one measure or two measures in the "pattern". If you look at it as one measure, then you have 8th, if two, then you have 2 sets of 4th. So in one measure pattern you place the "drop" &#40;b-drum/snare shot&#41; on the "fifth", in two measure pattern you place two "drops" - one on the "third" and second on the "seven's" ... <BR>..... <BR>empty spaces are empty spaces - drummer does nothing ... let it be and hear the singer's voice ... or nice bass note... or what have you .... sometimes even a beat of silence - which often makes a nice touch <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":&#41;"> <BR> <BR>/respects, <BR>/Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE

oki cool im starting to understand the problem i had was the drums sounded too much hiphop and to little reggea. But earlier i saw that u should place hihats in the empty spaces isnt it true? And if i understood the steepers u put the bassdrum in every dot dosent it sound like reggae then? &#40;if u wonder why i havent listen to the songs above is that i dont have download capibilities right now cuz i live in the wilderness whit one nasty firewall&#41; <BR> <BR>JAh bless =&#41;

the examples above were just ment to explain the basic difference between "one drop" and "steppers". if you program the patterns directly into a drum machine the result will sound very lifeless. <BR>it's more than ten years since i used a drum machine for the last time but as i remember usually the grid display features 4 dots for each beat &#40;or 3 if the machine is set to tripplet timing&#41;. so the one drop pattern would actually look something like this on the display: <BR> <BR> <BR><TABLE BORDER=1><TR><TD> </TD><TD>1</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD>2</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD>3</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD>4</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR><TD> hi hat </TD><TD>X</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>. </TD></TR><TR><TD> snare/rim</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>. </TD></TR><TR><TD> bass drum</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD></TR></TABLE> <BR> <BR>"." means "empty" <BR>"X" means a note is played

And the shown exampel above is "one drop" at 160 bpm? But how does steepers work on the drum machine? <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":&#41;"> thanx guys for all it makes me happy that u are willing to help a newbiedubber like me <BR>"Let motherearth bless your kaya"

a basic steppers beat would be like that: <BR> <BR><TABLE BORDER=1><TR><TD> </TD><TD>1</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD>2</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD>3</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD>4</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR><TD> hi hat </TD><TD>X</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>. </TD></TR><TR><TD> snare/rim</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>. </TD></TR><TR><TD> bass drum</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD></TR></TABLE> <BR> <BR>or with a faster hihat: <BR> <BR><TABLE BORDER=1><TR><TD> </TD><TD>1</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD>2</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD>3</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD>4</TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD><TD> </TD></TR><TR><TD> hi hat </TD><TD>X</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>. </TD></TR><TR><TD> snare/rim</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>. </TD></TR><TR><TD> bass drum</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>X</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD><TD>.</TD></TR></TABLE>

oki kool im starting to get this =&#41; thanx man

DELETED

DELETED

DELETED