Mixing On-The-Fly / Using subgroups

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Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE
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Mixing On-The-Fly / Using subgroups

Post by Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE » Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:41 am

Hi all, since I was receiving this kind of question few times, I've made a quick graphical sketch to demonstrate the idea of how it is possible to use subgroups faders as "send-to-effect" and available mixer's channels as "return", which also gives you more options for sound manipulation &#40;you can tweak eq and pan on effect-return chnls in real time, i.e. changing the sound of echo-repetitions or reverb's character or panning echos or changing reverb from focused &#40;mono&#41; to spacy-stereo with pan-knobs etc.&#41;. This is an example of how I often set an effect when dubbing in real time &#40;on-the-fly&#41;. This image may be helpful for a beginner. <BR>Note that this is just an example.... the effect can be what ever and configuration can be more complicated, involving more channels, effects etc... <BR>Here's the link to the graphical image: <BR><a href="http://www.mzentertainment.com/pics/dub ... fly_01.gif" target="_blank">http://www.mzentertainment.com/pics/dub ... _01.gif</a> <BR>&#42;&#42;&#42;&#42;&#42;&#42;&#42; <BR>if any questions or comments ...drop a note. <BR>/respects, <BR>/Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE <BR><a href="http://www.mzentertainment.com/zdl.html" target="_blank">ZEE DUB LAB</a>

Downpressor
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Mixing On-The-Fly / Using subgroups

Post by Downpressor » Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:56 am

Mike, <BR> <BR>The case you just described seems like a workaround if you dont have channel inserts on your analog mixer. Am I correct? If you have channel inserts then why waste a bus for one track? Maybe I'm missing something here...

Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:59 am

Mixing On-The-Fly / Using subgroups

Post by Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE » Mon Feb 20, 2006 5:58 am

Downpressor, <BR>nop, this is not a "workaround" of any kind <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":-&#41;" BORDER=0> <BR>that's my answer ... <BR>If you would explain what exactly do you mean by <font color="ff0000">"If you have channel inserts then why waste a bus for one track?"</font>, then I may add something... otherwise I would be just guessing <BR>&#42;&#42;&#42;&#42;&#42;&#42;&#42;&#42; <BR>inserts and direct outs also can be used in various configurations, &#40;just as send/returns can be used of course&#41;... but that's beyond the point. <BR> <BR>Again, the main idea here is to use maximum of your mixer's ability while dubbing in real time. It is kind of hard to explain, you gotta try doing it, then you know why it makes sense to use this kind of "layout" ... so you use faders moves on the fly and tweak parameters by turning knobs, similar like when you play synthesizer - you have two hands/10 fingers... you gotta have 'playable layout'. There's no "waste" here... it's just a "way of dubbing". &#40;there are other ways, sure&#41; <BR>I'll try to descibe example: at the desired moment to the beat of the music you'd make short quick move of the group fader &#40;fast up hold shortly and and then very fast back down&#41;, this way you send a short "cut" of vocal to the delay/echo, as echos come to return channel&#40;s&#41; you can for example move the return fader up, change pan position and tweak eq. <BR>Or another example: let's say it is not vocals, but, let's say drum track. So you can push group fader up at the time &#40;to the beat&#41; of drop &#40;kick/rim or snare drum&#41;.... so you send rim shot/snare hit to reverb/spring... and your "send moves" do vary already and you also use you left hand to tweak return eq so the reverb sound also changing its character. <BR>...well, again, writing about it is pretty boring thing to do. <BR> <BR>/respects

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interruptor
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Mixing On-The-Fly / Using subgroups

Post by interruptor » Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:47 am

if i got it right the advantage of this method is that you move a slider to send a signal to the effect instead of turning a pot. moving a slider is a faster movement, so it can be seen as more ergonomic. <BR>however i am happy with tweaking pots, so i don't use this approach myself.

Downpressor
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Mixing On-The-Fly / Using subgroups

Post by Downpressor » Mon Feb 20, 2006 2:40 pm

Arghhh! Once again one of my posts seems to have dissapeared. <BR> <BR>Anyways, to re-summarize and add something: I've tried this method before and didnt like using a bus fader for one instrument but I've found it useful for applying the same effect to multiple channels, like when you want to surge the reverb on a snare, hi-hats and guitar. For single channel effects, I still prefer knob tweaking for an insert/aux. In any case, the great thing is there is more than one way to dub

Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:59 am

Mixing On-The-Fly / Using subgroups

Post by Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE » Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:14 pm

well, of course there can be many ways of how to configure you dubbibg session using analog board ...also depending on what kind of board you have, what kind and how many tracks you have in the mix and what kind and how many effects do you use etc... I do not mean to somehow to say that this is "the best way" ..or anything like this. <BR>To me it's more about layout.... so to have good sense/feel/actually seeing 'what is where and where is what and in what "condition" <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":-&#41;" BORDER=0>'. <BR>My common "layout" is &#40;24chnl/8subs mixer&#41;: channels on the left &#40;let's say 1-12 are multi-track recorder &#40;can be more or less, depending on the song and how it was recorded&#41;, channels on the right, let's say 13-24 - effects returns, subgroups - effects sends. Assigning track&#40;s&#41; to a desired effect is a push of a button &#40;subgroups assign button&#41; &#40;which can be done during mixing&#41;. You can on-the-fly assign any track&#40;instrument&#41; to any effect, to more than one effect or assign many tracks&#40;instruments&#41; to a one effect, or send an instrument 100% through the effect and have no dry-signal in the mix by de-pressing the "main-mix" assign button of this instrument/track/channel...etc. The faders are obviously 'more visable' <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":-&#41;" BORDER=0> ...so you see what's going on fast ... well, you've got the idea <BR> <BR>/respects <BR>Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE

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interruptor
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Mixing On-The-Fly / Using subgroups

Post by interruptor » Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:34 pm

downpressor: i have read your message today before it disappeared. this is really upsetting.. <BR> <BR>i just wrote a mail to my provider asking whether they had a server crash today. after many years of reliable operation this is the first time that strange things like this occur here.

Downpressor
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Mixing On-The-Fly / Using subgroups

Post by Downpressor » Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:05 am

mike, <BR> <BR>I agree that the "hands on" feeling is a must for dubbing. Even though I use a computer production setup, I mix with a Mackie MCU control surface and the 8 channel sidecar with a C4 for knob controls. I end up with 16 faders &#43;1 master fader and 48 knobs &#40;32 on the C4 plus the 16 from the MCU &#43; sidecar&#41;. It "feels" just like an analog mixer, but I can re-assign any fader or knob in software &#40;I use Logic Express&#41;. <BR> <BR>By default the knobs on the MCU/sidecar are assigned to pan, but I could just as easily assign them as aux sends or hi/low pass filter cutoff or whatever. I can re-assign faders similarly, so I can bring in buses on unused channels. In effect this gives me sort of an "ultimate" mixing board ^_^

Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE
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Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:59 am

Mixing On-The-Fly / Using subgroups

Post by Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE » Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:51 am

Downpressor, <BR>yeah, sounds cool! <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":-&#41;" BORDER=0> <BR>well, of course, DAW/control-surface setup with its capability/features is very different "beast" comparing with "traditional" analog mixer/console structure. <BR>Again, I just want to point out one more time, in order to avoid confusion here. <BR>My post was mainly to "reply" to a question I happened to receive via e-mail many times. And the question is about details on how to use subgroups instead of send/return for effects when dubbing with analog mixer. So the question is somewhat specific. So I've decided to make this picture-example available.... it's easier to see one time than to read about connections ... you know what I mean <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":-&#41;" BORDER=0> <BR> <BR>/respects <BR>/Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE

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Mixing On-The-Fly / Using subgroups

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