hi everyone, <BR> <BR>we're starting a new dub-influenced website. we have some dubwise soundsystem sets, which use the great siren plug-in created by the interruptor i believe... also a set of my tabla ustaadji playing live over a breakbeat set, as i dub him on my mackie board. it's still a basic site, but we're working on some actual web design. we also want to showcase writings that deal with soundsystem culture, cultural and media studies, mythology and depth psychology, and such. check it out and give us some feedback! <BR> <BR>www.rootsandwires.com <BR> <BR>peace, <BR> <BR>khenu
neil, <BR> <BR>yes - i'm using vst's live via ableton 4.0 and a midi controller. also, i have a memory man analogue delay that i use as a send loop from my mackie board (and more recently via my 10 in and 10 out firewire audio box!). <BR> <BR>khenu
khenu, what's this? <BR> <BR><A HREF="http://www.rootsandwires.com/html%20pag ... 0Wires.htm" TARGET="_top">http://www.rootsandwires.com/html%20pag ... res.htm</A> <BR> <BR>apart from utter hogwash and waffle? <BR> <BR>we don't need to blackify dub. let's leave that to racists.
Triffidd - did you actually read all of this, and more importantly did you understand it? <BR> <BR>I didn't get any sense of an attempt to 'blackify' dub: <BR> <BR>'the virtual logic of the Black Electronic is not rooted in ethnic facts but rhizomatically spreads through the increasingly open-ended and hybridized zones of electro-acoustic cyberspace.' <BR> <BR>I don't think that you can disagree that dub originated in the work of people who were black. Thats a plain fact.
"One thing is clear: the Cartesian coordinate system will no longer suffice as our central conceptual or tactical model for the spaces that surround and shape us. We need more complex folds, more permeable milieus, more capable disorientations. We need models that avail themselves to intensive as well as extensive spaces, to voids as well as substances. We need images and allegories that can somehow suggest the yawning multiplicities and complex networks that lurk on the horizon of thought and experience like the yawning hyperspaces of science-fiction's headier cosmologies." <BR> <BR>The rest is similar. I was kind to call it waffle, perhaps a more appropriate term would be bullshit. <BR> <BR>The quote you cited came from this paragraph: <BR> <BR>"In this paper, I am interested in one particular zone of electro-acoustic cyberspace, a zone I'm calling the Black Electronic. I've dubbed the term from the British cultural theorist Paul Gilroy, who uses the phrase the "Black Atlantic" to denote the "webbed network" of the African diasporic culture that penetrates the United States, the Caribbean, and, by the end of the twentieth century, the UK. Gilroy considers the Black Atlantic a modernist countercultural space, a space that, for all the claims of black cultural nationalists, is not organized by African roots but by a "rhizomorphic, routed" set of vectors and exchanges: ships, migrations, creoles, phonographs, European miscegenations, expatriot flights, dreams of repatriation. The image of the criss-crossed Atlantic ocean is essential for Gilroy's purpose, which is to erode the monolithic notion of roots and tradition by emphasizing the "restless, recombinant" qualities of Afrodiasporic culture as it simultaneously explores, exploits, and resists the spaces of modernity." <BR> <BR>The people behind Roots and Wires appear to be a Punjabi and an Englishman, with a Thesaurus. They felt the need to constantly refer to Africa and African rhythms, in their essay on "dub". <BR> <BR>I'm saying that this was a pointless exercise (not to mention THANKLESS), because at its roots those same "West African" rhythms are found in the music of many cultures, including English and Punjabi (as folk music). I don't accept that there is anything distinct about "polymetric" sounds found in West African music. Simply because the author can't follow the "pulse" (i.e. regular beat) of dub, does'nt validate his contention that the aforementioned "pulse" is imaginary. Example: north Indian tabla solos feature changing rhythms (e.g. 10 beats per bar, then 15, then back to 10, then 8, etc) and they have done for millenia. If polyrhythms are what makes dub dub, just because they are also found in African music, that would make those tabla solos "dub" too. <BR> <BR>Given the prevalence of hand-drumming culture throughout the non-African world, I don't see why dub has to be blackified in this way just because some guys in Jamaica in the 70s found out how to get the best out of their recording equipment, tape delays, echoes, etc. <BR> <BR>I'm not black. The DUB I make is not black. Dub is'nt black-and-white. <BR> <BR>"Electro-acoustic cyberspace": the guy is simply wowed by being stoned and being on the internet too long. What a nonsense idea.
Triffidd, <BR> <BR>It's interesting that your critique of this paper, which you obviously don't understand, itself follows a very similar psychological logic to racism. I believe that Erik Davis, the author of the paper, is both acknowledging the african and jamaican roots of modern dub, as well as acknowledging it's expansion beyond this. Perhaps we can strive to expand from "either-or" positions, to a more dialectical, "both-and" one (e.g. there are both black roots and also modern dub which is not directly "black"). That is part of the essence of our site, to look critically at notions of "roots," and also at the complex pathways of cultural forms and identities. With the latter in mind, I also find it interesting how you reduce our complex identities to "a Punjabi and an Englishman," again embodying the very (projected) logic you criticize! There is certainly an academic aspect to our website, which isn't going to appeal to everyone, but hopefully you will think it has a right to a voice, as part of the mix... <BR> <BR>Khenu <BR> <BR>P.S. <BR>You don't express much understanding of Indian classical rhythm, again embodying the very critique you espouse, this time with regards to "not being able to follow the pulse" of Indian classical music - it is very different from African polyrhythms. After reviewing some of your other posts recommending that we "smoke more herb," I wonder if your statement, "the guy is simply wowed by being stoned and being on the internet too long. What a nonsense idea," is another projected reflection from your own shadow?
Khenu, I understand you perfectly. I'm not denying you your "right to a voice", I'm only making explicit what every non-gullible individual thinks when reading your garbage. <BR> <BR>There is nothing complex about your 2-man gang's identities. I called you a Punjabi and an Englishman because respectively, that's who you are. Your references to a "nomadic" identity are a joke. <BR> <BR>Khenu your "paper" is an attempt to interpret a newish folk music tradition in an art music context. The fact is that there is hardly any sense of repertoire in this genre, and the historical context is both very recent (dub flowered in the 70s) and SO FAR REMOVED FROM YOUR OWN ROOTS that you felt the need to write a very poorly written essay in justification! Anyone can see that. For instance, would a black West Indian have written anything of this nature concerning "roots" and dub? No. You made up your "electro-acoustic cyberspace" and a thousand other little buzzwords you try to want me to "understand" in order to make your copycat dub seem to have an intellectual integrity that it will never have. <BR> <BR>Bullshit will get you nowhere in dub, my friend. Yes, I recommend that you should smoke some more herb and stop writing crap. DubWISE. If you were more used to being stoned you would'nt think yourself some sort of genius and start filling an A4 with your more "profound" thoughts. As it happens, the paper is stilted and convoluted in style, and singularly unconvincing. It's the sort of thing that might be produced with by a first-year media-studies-and-sociology "degree" student at a 3rd-rate poly. <BR> <BR>About Indian classical rhythm: I was'nt trying to explain it to you but I can if you like. Would you like to tell me and have it on record, that the "polyrhythms" in West African drumming are absent in dhrupad? Seriously, you must be some sort of idiot for representing that Indian drumming is "very different" from "African polyrhythms". Do more research. Indian music has EVERY drum rhythm mapped out systematically. Plus there is the bass drum (pakhawaj). Don't try to take credit for inventing the wheel now. I wrote: "north Indian tabla solos feature changing rhythms (e.g. 10 beats per bar, then 15, then back to 10, then 8. etc.)" and that is correct. <BR> <BR>Don't get personal when discussing this (i.e. regarding projection and psychological disorders) unless you really mean it because I will call your BLUFF. You should be grateful for the attention.
PS: If Bruce Lee really is the patron saint of your sound system, you should feel more liberated about denouncing the widely-held superstition that there is something magical or unique about people of black African descent and the rhythms they have inherited.
Triffid, <BR> <BR>It seems from your emotional response, that I've caused some narcissistic wounding with my critique. It's funny that you ask me not to get personal when you're personality exhudes your response! Anyway, as I pointed out, we did not write the essay - it's by Erik Davis: <BR> <BR><A HREF="http://www.techgnosis.com/index_bio.html" TARGET="_top">http://www.techgnosis.com/index_bio.html</A> <BR> <BR>From his bio, it's obvious that he's not a first year media-studies student. I'm not sure what you mean by nomadic identity, but I was trying to speak to the complexity of all of our identities, which are only partially influenced by constructs of race and ethnicity, themselves very complex (i.e. being "Punjabi" is not some monolithic thing). Cross-cultural psychiatry and psychotherapy is one of my areas of interest and a part of my daily work, so it's no bluff... Anyway, there's no point in continuing to be caught up in this with you so I will stop here! <BR> <BR>khenu
I know all about Punjabis, being one myself. <BR> <BR>Your own preoccupation with matters of "ego" (you stated "narcisstic wounding", and in your earlier message mentioned projection) is an unmistakable identifier and reveals your possibly irreparable cultural conditioning as a Sikh. You should therefore think seriously about whether you should be involved in psychiatry or psychology, when carrying around the psychological baggage that you do. Especially if you're dealing with north Americans, who are not fetishistic about the ego. <BR> <BR>Ego is'nt bad. Ego is good. I. <BR> <BR>There's no place for Punjabi religion in dub, because it teaches the suppression of the individual ego, whereas Rastafari equates divinity with "I". <BR> <BR>This is the problem with having Punjabis in dub. The only way it can work is with a lot of weed. Too much cultural baggage.
Just read the bio! I did'nt get it at first - Erik Davis is just a Californian hack! Maybe I took it too seriously then. Today it's electro-acoustic cyberspace, yesterday it was men are from mars, women are from venus.
Anyway, I just think I should mention, from the tiny snippets I heard of the music, it sounded like it might be very good to me (I only got about 20 seconds so I can't really make a judgement). The sound of the tabla was great.
I heard "Special Agent K meets Vishal Nagar" (30 minutes long). To be honest I could'nt hear any reggae in this piece (except in a gamelan-type thing that begins a third of the way through and is then sustained for the duration), and the speech voiceover (anti-war soapboxing) was a real turn-off. The bass needs to come out a lot more (could use a bit of tweaking in the mix). The tabla track is better than OK, even if it's a bit nervous. The whole piece seems to take a long time to build up to something it never becomes, and is a bit too cerebral about half-way through. <BR>Almost half-way through, a voiceover announces "and here comes the dub version", which is followed by a major downtempo shift (just begging for a reggae bass) and some very simple electro-pads with a bit of flanger. <BR> <BR>Exactly half-way through, a jungle breakbeat just switches on, tabla-accompanied for a few seconds. The tabla-work is weak here, and it just reminds you what a shame it is that Chatur Lal was'nt involved (on account of his being deceased). The tabla comes in sporadically after that, with a bit too much flat-constant reverb and improvising over the machine-like jungle breakbeat. A very warm and jaded-sounding female Indian vocalist comes in and the result is fairly standard crossover fare: jungle breakbeat, tabla and Indian song. Unfortunately the low-res jungle bass just does'nt sound so hot. <BR> <BR>The 7th "eighth" of the song is a bit more lively, and has a warrior/steppers feel. However, the bass is way too naff at this point, and lets down the interesting things going on between the tabla, the male vocal and the breakbeat. <BR> <BR>Overall, it's not bad music, and it could benefit from remastering. I gave it a chance despite my misgivings. The Indian structure of this long piece was noted, as well as its very commercial feel.
Hi Neil and Triffid, <BR> <BR>Thanks for the feedback. To clarify, this was a purely improvised live recording, so that's why it is a bit raw. The idea of this set and our site isn't necessarily to follow a rigid reggae formula (in the same way that "dub" is not a purely black thing!), but to apply some dub-inspired principles - for instance, adding tape delay and effects to vishal's tabla work live, playing around with echotones, space and such... Also, many of the samples were from various reggae tracks... The speech was that of Nehru and I felt was rather appropriate given the state of affairs. It also pays indirect homage to roots reggae tracks which are very political in their critiques of "babylon" and often speak in an idealistic manner of peace, war, and love... The female vocals I layered on top are some Urdu poetry, by Meena Kumari, so a little different then the standard drum and bass with indian vocals vibe. I also thought the live tabla playing, with distortion and analogue delay give it a slightly different, somewhat dubwise flavour, though it's not that different from something like the original tabla beat science recording. I personally am not into some of the more repetitive stepper's jungle that I played for this set, but I thought it would be easier to improvise tabla off of a more regular framework... I tend to be into more syncopated and heady drum and bass, as well as more old-school ragga styles... The bass is more fierce on the wave file - the low quality mp3 doesn't do this full justice. This said, I'm just getting into production (as opposed to live performance), so I certainly have a lot to learn about mastering. Thanks for the feedback... <BR> <BR>peace, <BR> <BR>khenu
The music is cool. Experimental Electronica/ World Fusion/Dub Fusion - that is. In one word - Experimental music, that is. Allots of work there and well done, from samples I've streamed. <BR>About the "text" or article..or what ever - 'manifesto' that is. Well, it's cool for the site to create some sort of "atmosphere of mystery and dedication" for a music fan, who maybe is into listening to all sorts of experimental electronic/world fusion music. The article/essay makes an iteresting introduction for a person, who does not take anything 'seriously', but simply is in search of entertainment within a specific field of interest. <BR>But if you read through this "poem of wordy salad" and take it as a serious material, then you just have to conclude that this assay is a great example of 'well put nonsensical catatonia'. <BR>Also, "You simply "don't understand it"-argument will not work, man .... Give me a break. You don't need much brains to see through it. <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> That's alright thou... <BR>Triffidd lost a nerve a bit..I gues in responding, which I can undertand, especially when it comes to 'reading some article, which sounds like a soft and warm stream of bullS**t, then saying it as it is, and then getting respond ala: "Hey, dude, you are just too small to grasp the depth of it...". Oh Yeahhh?! Really?, then maybe that's a pisser, man... Very complex, but still is a pisser, ... <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> <IMG SRC="http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discu ... /happy.gif" ALT=":)"> <BR>Stuff like: "I'm your sister, I'm Your Mother, I'm your Father, I'm your Brother...yada yada..." - that's maybe is very cool and catchy for a trash-rock song lyrics, but it IS nonsense, see what I mean?. <BR> later, guys <BR>/respects, <BR>/Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE
Mike Zee as usual your analysis is perfect. I agree that this music stands on its own as "experimental music", and that the wordy salad (an unfortunate manifesto for Khenu's sound system) is pretty transparent to most informed people who will see it for what it is. <BR> <BR>Khenu I would say first of all that dub is'nt a "black thing" at all - you just perceive it that way because of your environment (the fact that you are a Punjabi fellow in north America MAY colour your perception, would'nt you agree?) Anecdotally, I have seen many "black" youngsters at dances these days who are not clued up on the 70s dance trends, and who in fact don't even have a sense of rhythm and hence cannot appreciate dub at all. Reggae/dub has meaning in the dance. It's all a question of [underline] listening experience [/underline], a point I will return to. <BR> <BR>If I may quote you Khenu: <BR>"The idea of this set and our site isn't necessarily to follow a rigid reggae formula (in the same way that "dub" is not a purely black thing!), but to apply some dub-inspired principles - for instance, adding tape delay and effects to vishal's tabla work live, playing around with echotones, space and such.." <BR> <BR>Without trying to dissect what you've written too critically, may I suggest that using "dub-inspired principles" is the basis for most types of modern recorded dance music these days, and does'nt make what you've created "dub"! <BR> <BR>You also wrote: <BR>" The speech was that of Nehru and I felt was rather appropriate given the state of affairs. It also pays indirect homage to roots reggae tracks which are very political in their critiques of "babylon" and often speak in an idealistic manner of peace, war, and love..." <BR> <BR>The difference is that roots reggae speaks/spoke to the "sufferers" rather than to a liberal left social elite, hence the commentaries about Babylon were direct allusions to Rastafarian beliefs. WAR EVERYWHERE, until the ideology that one man is superior to another on the basis of the colour of his skin is fully and finally discredited. Where does this reference come from? If you don't know, then you should'nt be trying to sell this music as an evolution of reggae/dub or referring to roots reggae because you don't have enough listening experience. <BR> <BR>You wrote: <BR>"The female vocals I layered on top are some Urdu poetry, by Meena Kumari, so a little different then the standard drum and bass with indian vocals vibe." <BR>Subjectively, this theme (layering over an Urdu ghazal) is a strong point in your compo, especially because it follows a rhythm of its own, over the breakbeat rhythm, and also because it sounds very rich and warm. <BR> <BR>You wrote: <BR>"I personally am not into some of the more repetitive stepper's jungle that I played for this set, but I thought it would be easier to improvise tabla off of a more regular framework..." <BR> <BR>You're right about this, you know. I have managed to match up Indian drumming to dub reggae nicely and neatly in my own work, proving my point that dhrupad has dub reggae in it. If you're interested I can email you an MP3 or two to demonstrate the point. <BR> <BR>"The bass is more fierce on the wave file - the low quality mp3 doesn't do this full justice. This said, I'm just getting into production (as opposed to live performance)" <BR> <BR>2 points here: there is more to reggae bass (usually) than meets the ear in your music. I'm not going to elaborate on any secret techniques, but there are loads. It's not just about the amount of bandwidth filled with your bassline. The junglist bass line does'nt fit, unless there is a hint of skank in the drums, if that makes sense. <BR>Also, you need to work on your production techniques. Post-production studio work is what you're doing when you're "dubbing". <BR> <BR>If you want some work remastered I can do it for you if you like, as an example. <BR> <BR>Selassie I take over this man (Khenu).