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Tape echo simulators
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tdhh



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2002 5:05 pm    Post subject: Tape echo simulators Reply with quote

I'm looking to get a hardware tape echo simulator for dub production. I know a simulator will never sound *exactly* like a real tape echo, but I can't afford one, and would rather not deal with the hassle of repairs, etc. The two models that have caught my eye are the Akai Headrush and the Line 6 DL4. Anyone use these and can comment on their veracity? Any other models you can suggest? Thanks.

I'm sure this subject has been broached numerous times on this board, so I apologize for any redundancy.
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Mike Zee



Joined: 20 Mar 2001
Posts: 766
Location: NY, USA

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2002 8:09 pm    Post subject: Tape echo simulators Reply with quote

hey, man, there couple more digital floor boxes, but akai-HRTES is the choice ... I think. well, digital delay is digital..., nothing you can do, I've used boos-DD pedal, which is usefull, but does not really do the same as tape does at all.

check some reviews from guys who had akai-HeadRush: AKAI HRTES reviews

respects,

/Mike Zee
zee dub lab

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interruptor



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 1138
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2002 4:31 pm    Post subject: Tape echo simulators Reply with quote

instead of using a simulator you could also
build your own tape delay. This may be cheaper
and you'll have a REAL tape delay.

You'll need these ingredients: (also see this picture)

  • a tape deck or reel to reel machine with read-after-write feature (r-a-w or repro, this means there are two separate heads for recording and playback - this way you can listen to what's on the tape already while recording)
  • any digital delay unit
  • one channel strip of your mixing desk


connect as follows (example):
  • auxiliary send 1 of your mixer goes to the recording input of the tape deck (set send level to zero)
  • put a tape in the deck, start recording and switch to read-after-write mode.
  • connect the monitor out of the tape deck to the input of the delay unit (set feedback amount to zero)
  • the output of the delay is connected to channel input 4 on your mixer (example).


Now everything is connected you can:
  • use the fader of channel 4 on your mixer to set the overall delay level
  • adjust the delay time on the digital delay unit
  • open auxiliary send pot 1 on any instrument's track to add tape delay to that channel
  • tweak aux send pot 1 on channel 4 to control the feedback amount
  • use the EQs on mixer channel 4 to shape the sound of your delays
  • if you are using a reel to reel tape stop the left reel with your hand and let it go to create some extra crazy delay wobbles..


The advantage of such a setting is that you have
more control over the delay sound via the mixer's EQs than on a SpaceEcho or similar unit.

For a start you can also do this without the
digital delay unit but then you will not be
able to set the delay time freely - you will
just have the ones resulting from the tape
speed settings available on your tape machine

peace & happy dubbing
the interruptor
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Mike Zee



Joined: 20 Mar 2001
Posts: 766
Location: NY, USA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2002 6:24 pm    Post subject: Tape echo simulators Reply with quote

Hi, Daniel,
I was thinking of making some sort of monster-machine myself, i'v got some parts, still only ideas in my mind... thou,

thanks for this info, man,

the problem here, i wish to see the picture. angelfire service will not let you to view any images as deep-link, do you have any page-URL where this picture is, it has to be on angelfire server, so you also "check their banners as well" he he :(....

later,

respects,

/Mike Zee

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Mike Zee



Joined: 20 Mar 2001
Posts: 766
Location: NY, USA

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2002 7:09 pm    Post subject: Tape echo simulators Reply with quote

nevermind, Daniel, i've managed to view the pic, it's a really 'nice'-drawing :)'....

btw, the trick is, if you can not see pic as deep link on some server, but you have FronPage (or FPExpress), you can go to "root directory" page, then click edit, then in HTML-view type in image tag with url-to-image you are trying to see, and then in preview-view you'll see the pic and can actually save it. Well, the thing is, that server lets you to load images into editor... blah blah, it has nothing to do with the subjec og the topic, ;)

later, guys,

/Mike Zee

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ZEE DUB LAB
Dr ZEE WORKSHOP
MZEntertainment.com
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interruptor



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 1138
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2002 11:31 pm    Post subject: Tape echo simulators Reply with quote

image link is now correct
(Dl5.jpg)
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Derek van Beever



Joined: 04 Jul 2002
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2002 3:34 pm    Post subject: Tape echo simulators Reply with quote

Could you list a couple of cheep tape machines that have the r-a-w function.
much thanks
D
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interruptor



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 1138
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Fri Jul 05, 2002 12:12 pm    Post subject: Tape echo simulators Reply with quote

i don't think it makes much sense to list machines with the r-a-w feature here since this market is just too big. i personally use a revox a77 reel to reel for this purpose, but most semi-pro and pro reel to reel machines as well as advanced consumer tape decks have this function. so just check all machines you come accross in second hand stores, pawn shops or whatever.
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Nematod



Joined: 23 Mar 2001
Posts: 39

PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2002 3:55 pm    Post subject: Tape echo simulators Reply with quote

about the Line 6 echo Pro , a friend had it . and he said it was very bad at emulating tape echoes, which is what it is supposed to do. so he sold it and bought a stage echo instead !
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Jubba



Joined: 04 Dec 2002
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2002 11:41 pm    Post subject: Tape echo simulators Reply with quote

nice one for the info on making ypur own tape delay, pure joy.

When i made it with what i already owned, i only had a basic tape recorder (without R-A-W). I discoverd that this is all you need. Set the 'mix' of the delay unit to 100% and the Feedback to 1 (minimum). If you feed back the return channel back to the tape (delay setup), it works perfectly.

rubbajubbadub

ps: im rubish at explaining things, if someone understands the point im making and wants to verify it properly, do so imediatly.
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Frank Carvalho



Joined: 14 Nov 2002
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2002 10:25 am    Post subject: Tape echo simulators Reply with quote

It can't be done without R-A-W. You've got to have the signal on tape, and you've got to be able to read it afterwards to hear the echo. Otherwise it's certainly not the tape machine producing the echo. I have used a couple of different old reel-to-reel machines as tape echo. I started with an old Beocord 2000, which was great because it could run with an incredibly low speed making very long echoes. But the circuitry had basically given up, so it was ultra noisy and unstable. Then I've been using a ReVox A77 as mentioned above. That is by far the most stable machine. However, mine is modded to run at double speed, which is great for very short slap delays and room effects, but not so great for the long deep echoes. It is true that you are limited by the speeds of the machine itself. But reel-to-reel machines have on very big advantage over ordinary echo machines: They are stereo! By cross-channeling the feedback signal from channel 1 to channel 2 and vice versa, you get the coolest bounce echoes. And what's more, the input to the unit is also stereo. If you pan your signal from back and forth you will hear an incredibly complex echoed sound. Therefore the reel-to-reel machine is often the preferred choice.
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munky lee



Joined: 22 Jul 2001
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2002 7:16 pm    Post subject: Tape echo simulators Reply with quote

hi dubheadz!
I have the line6 DL4, and it is marvellous! I love my DL4.
nematod, it is pretty strange that your friend don't like his echo pro, the echo pro is better than the DL4, and the DL4 is a really good emulation.
you can preset 3 different echos, and you have so many different emulation. the sound is really really good.
I will never buy a real echo tape. you often have to change the tape!

yeah!
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Jubba



Joined: 04 Dec 2002
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Wed Dec 11, 2002 4:25 am    Post subject: Tape echo simulators Reply with quote

nice one munky lee. Im waiting for sound controll to get a Line 6 in so that I can try it. but what im using at the moment (above) will do for now. Fair enoough its not a geniune tape echo created purly from a tape. But from what is affordable/accessable it does the job very well. For anyone else trying to get that sound from a small budget, it works O.K. I borrwed a roland space echo from a mate (RE201 - the terminology may be inacreate). however, from comparing it to my delay setup, I decided that it probably wouldn't be worth saving the cash to get something geuine. Pureists may beg to differ, but if i had the money to fork out on anolouge stuff i would not be shy to say the least.

With what I've got at the moment, you can still get that crunchy distortion from the tape as the delays build up. So anyone anyone in my position with a digital delay unit and a normal tape recorder - try it, Its better than both pieces of equipment stood apart from each other.
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KoCha



Joined: 25 Jan 2002
Posts: 259
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2002 8:50 am    Post subject: Tape echo simulators Reply with quote

I have the danelectro tape echo sim : www.danelectro.com

Really sound great for dub, with delay time change in real time.

KoCha

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Open Dub Foundation - The WorldWide Dub Meeting
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Looter



Joined: 13 Mar 2001
Posts: 111
Location: US

PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2002 7:12 am    Post subject: Tape echo simulators Reply with quote

That daneelectro tape echo pedal looks cool, its designed to look like an echoplex or something. but you won't get the real subtle things about tape echo that make it sound so "organic" without a real tape loop going around.
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aleph



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 72

PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 5:33 pm    Post subject: Tape echo simulators Reply with quote

the reinjection is the solution for the color of any
tape echo (ex:if you use aux 1, send carefully
aux 1 to the return and try to EQ the return:-3Db
at 250hz your delay will go to high frequency)
This technic is a classic ,just don t put your
trim too high and be carefull with larsen
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interruptor



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 1138
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 6:34 pm    Post subject: Tape echo simulators Reply with quote

aleph: i am not sure whether i understood your technique. what do you mean by "send carefully aux 1 to the return"? do you actually mean "open aux send 1 on the mixer channel where the delay unit's output is connected"?

peace
daniel
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aleph



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 72

PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 6:44 pm    Post subject: Tape echo simulators Reply with quote

this is it daniel, it is dangerous but if you try
you will hear the classical tubby anr prince fari
delay ,but don t goes two fast ,and do it only whith monitors (for your hears)
you ve got to seach the right balance between the send and the trim off your return
if it works your feedback will be longer the effect name is "dukking"
don t put the echo feedback too high
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aleph



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 72

PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2003 6:57 pm    Post subject: Tape echo simulators Reply with quote

i ve forgot to tell you to put the dry wet balance
at your effect to all wet as possible it will be
more easy, the result are different when you
EQ your effect return (high damp low damp)
the result is terriffic (is it english(:-))
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KoCha



Joined: 25 Jan 2002
Posts: 259
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2003 7:25 pm    Post subject: Tape echo simulators Reply with quote

Oh man... i don't know this tricks.. i have try it before but always with my delay feedback on the unit to the less.. but if you let your unit normal and make what aleph say.... Parametric eq make little delayed d-amp or amp... if you amp the hi freq you get a phasing effect.

Peace.

KoCha
PS: c'est cool d'avoir un nouveau dubber francophone parmis nous! et merci bcp pour le truck.. je comprends pas pourquois j'ai pas esseyer avant.. lol!

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