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spring reverb plug-ins (vst directx)
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kris



Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2002 3:37 pm    Post subject: spring reverb plug-ins (vst directx) Reply with quote

where can i find a spring reverb directx or vst plugin
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Mike Zee



Joined: 20 Mar 2001
Posts: 766
Location: NY, USA

PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2002 8:49 pm    Post subject: spring reverb plug ins Reply with quote

I never heard of one ...:)..., I mean - :(,
heh heh, well, either way...
The thing is that software developers were (or are) trying to create something what DOES NOT! sound like spring reverb, but rather something CLEAN, which they call 'more natural' ...I guess from 'computer-programmer mind's point of view the taste of pure sugar from a can is more natural than taste of wild grape... heh, poetically speaking ... ;)

I've found this tipical review-quote on this plugin review page:
"The Ultrafunk reverb is one of the cleanest, smoothest, and most spacious reverb plug-ins I've used yet. None of that twanginess that makes it sound like a spring reverb (although that is cool at times). It's really really smooth and spacious, lots of control over the timbre, reflections, and frequencies of the reverb"
*****
I think from 'market point of view' it maybe a good idea for some software company to develop a special plug-in pack, calling it something like "Vintage Dirt", or "Dirty Pack" ... which would be a sort of collection of modeling of sounds of variety of vintage effect-processors, you know, similar to 'vynil-pack', where you can set amount of 'scretches, noise and RPM ..heh heh,
so in "Dirty Pack", you would be able to set "parameters" like: length of the spring, amount of dust inside the tank, amount of rust on electrical connectors etc etc :), I also wish to have there "kik the amp-cab with your foot"-BUTTON, it must be a real time-effect :)

respects,
/Mike Zee
ZEE DUB LAB

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interruptor



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 1138
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2002 9:28 am    Post subject: spring reverb plug ins Reply with quote

indeed.. i also searched the net for spring reverb plug-ins some time ago and only came accross the same paragraph mike has cited above in green color!

it seems that nowaday's market for vintage/spring reverbs is mostly driven by guitar players and these guys want a real hardware box they can connect in between guitar and amp..

as i mentioned in an earlyer post there are plug-ins by different manufacturers based on the convolution method which can be used to simulate any real room or reverb effect box. These need a lot of computing power so they are not suited for real time use (unless you have a really super fast computer). "acoustic mirror" is one of these plug-ins. It is available together with sound forge and also includes some spring reverb presets. another option would be samplitude's "room simulator".
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kris



Joined: 20 Jun 2002
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2002 1:37 am    Post subject: spring reverb plug ins Reply with quote

yeah i found the same thing.
it would be classic if you could get a tubby kick the amp plugin

cheers for the tips
kris
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interruptor



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 1138
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2002 8:00 am    Post subject: spring reverb plug ins Reply with quote

if you are just after the "tubby kick the amp" sound you could also kick a guitar amp with spring reverb yourself and take some samples. in my opinion for this thundering noise it's not so important to get the EXACT same sound to achieve the same feel as it is with reverb applied to drum hits.
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Mike Zee



Joined: 20 Mar 2001
Posts: 766
Location: NY, USA

PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2002 2:42 pm    Post subject: spring reverb plug ins Reply with quote

Daniel said:
"if you are after "tobby kick the amp" sound - you can kick the amp yourself."

heh heh heh - LOL :) :) :)

No-way, man, it'gotta be Tobby's foot - no other way .... ;)

Daniel, you know - it's just sort of very funny thing .. you know, well, I'm just jokin' - hah hah

I think Tobby could produce and release sample-CD, full of Tobby-Kicking The Amp sounds/samples, so producers know thgen, that this is not just somebody's kicks... but they are True-Tobby's :) :)

later,
respects

/Mike Zee

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Eric Vasconcellos



Joined: 16 Nov 2002
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2002 6:09 pm    Post subject: spring reverb plug ins Reply with quote

Mike,

I think he is referring to "Tubby's" not "Tobby's" as in King Tubby, THE founder of dub....Jamaican Mastermind unfortunately gunned down in front of his home in 1989....

One Love
Eric V
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Mike Zee



Joined: 20 Mar 2001
Posts: 766
Location: NY, USA

PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2002 8:50 pm    Post subject: spring reverb plug ins Reply with quote

Eric, thanx so much for da'education.

that's a love'ting... you know....
you say kick - I say kik

you say ridm or rridim or riddim - i say rhythm

you say Tubby , I say Tobby :)

we all can get sensetive over meaningless shit for some reason...
**********
whould you be so kind to clear up then: is it Robby, or Robie, or Robbie..., but no , no Rubby... or is it? , please educate my bone-head...
yeah, and who is Robbie?
******
but of course, when it comes to down to talking about "Kings", then we MUST respect da'spelling more than our misserable lifes... or shall we care at all?

/respects
/M Zee, aka Dr. Zee

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Ben Nagari



Joined: 07 Nov 2002
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2003 10:29 am    Post subject: spring reverb plug ins Reply with quote

I thought you might be interested in the link, I haven't tried it yet but the PSP84 plugin is advertised as being able to do 'spring reverb'

link

Ben
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interruptor



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 1138
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2003 11:48 am    Post subject: spring reverb plug ins Reply with quote

here are two more plugins that feature spring reverb:

IK Multimedia - Amplitube

TC Works - native performance verb (MAC only)
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interruptor



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 1138
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2003 1:06 am    Post subject: spring reverb plug ins Reply with quote

I just tried out the spring reverb simulation in the PSP 84 and the Amplitube:

Amplitube: Spring reverb emulation is hardly recognizable as such. It is not much more than a short digital delay with a high feedback level.

PSP 84: Somewhat better. It reminds of a spring reverb for most input signals. But it does not emulate the typical response of a spring reverb to a bass drum: This "puiprrrr" sound that can be heard on many vintage dubs, when the rim shot plus bass drum of a one drop beat hit the reverb unit.

It seems we have to wait some more until somebody seriously attemps to emulate a spring reverb..
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Mike Zee



Joined: 20 Mar 2001
Posts: 766
Location: NY, USA

PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2003 2:19 pm    Post subject: spring reverb plug ins Reply with quote

Daniel, it's not gonna happen :( ... here's what I mean: nobody really going to go deeply into "analyzis" of what exactly happenning with electrical signals when passing through the spring and try to "digitize" the whole process. Some programmers may simply try to achive a sound-throuh effect when applied on some instruments. And the thing is: different sounds (signals) getting different effect actually when being sent through actual physical spring. I mean, another words, if you play guitar through the spring it'll will get one "kind" of treatment, if you send a sharp drum-kik with rim - it'll shake the spring differently and thus the actuall effect (or what actually happens with the spring) is not the same as when you play guitar or organ etc....
I am having trouble to explain what I mean, but the buttom line is: the real spring reverb's effect also depends on characteristics of the input sounds/signals.
So, if you can follow what I'm saying here ..heh heh :), is not a "ONE" effect processor, but many effect-processors in one, depending on what you send through. I think it would be possible to program some specific sets of digital effects, but it would not be "spring reverb simulation", but set of simulations, like:
clean guitar spring reverb simulation
distorted guitar spring reverb simulation
organ spring reverb simulation
etc...
now, do you think that somebody would seat-down programming kik/rim shot spring reverb simulation??? heh heh , kind of hard to imagine, unless the programmer actually is a dub-head himself or get the idea to create something like "Ghosts of Kingston - special plugIn pack", hah hah ;) :)

/respects
/Mike Zee

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interruptor



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 1138
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:57 pm    Post subject: spring reverb plug ins Reply with quote

you're probably right mike - maybe there will never be enough commercial potential for developping such a plugin. but i think it wouldn't be harder to do than other existing emulations like tube overdrive, tape saturation, speaker simulation, hammond organ, rhodes piano, .. this technology is still young and the market is growing fast so i wouldn't be surprised if someday somebody came up with a dedicated spring reverb plug-in.
meanwhile check out http://www.kvr-vst.com for a great overview of commercial and free vst-plugins.

peace
daniel
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munky lee



Joined: 22 Jul 2001
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2003 8:56 am    Post subject: spring reverb plug ins Reply with quote

I don't really agree with you mike.
thoses kinds of effects are really important for us, they are a kind of magic. but we maybe consider them more important than they really are.

what they do is only modulate an electric signal, but in a way we really love. but technically, it is only electricity.

what is impossible, for exemple, is to recreate a natural reverb of a church or something like that.
but a spring reverb or a tape echo is really more simple for an algorythmheader!!!

mat
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Rootzilla



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2003 9:58 am    Post subject: spring reverb plug ins Reply with quote

Yes I,

Actually, Munky, you're only half right: the spring reverb creates (as I'm sure you know) the effect by the vibration of a spring. So it's not jus' electricity, it's also the _physics_ of the actual spring. And to model the way a piece of metal reacts to different amounts of energy at different frequencies would be quite complex, I guess...

Like Mike said, if ya feed your kick and you rimshot in the 'verb at the same time, the massive amount of energy the low-freq kick signal feeds into the spring is going to affect how the rimshot is modulated by the spring as well. So the problem would be simulating that interaction and crosstalk.

Jus' my two cents...

One Love,

Rootz
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sachamassagonna



Joined: 23 Jul 2001
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:31 am    Post subject: spring reverb plug ins Reply with quote

...yes I...
...love the deep 'psychics of Dub'...

...i think as the programming of plugins are at the moment it is quite primitive actually in comparison to tha spontaneous workings of reaction and response of 'real' frequency wave patterns that we find in 'natural' atmosphere acoustics and the innerworkings of the spring reverb...Jah makes things more 'advanced' in the first creation, seen?...and we Jah children strive for that and eventually merge again into that first creation through 'our' creations...

...i do see some interesting things in store for us in the future when virtual reality simulation will be more indepthly incorporated with more intensity to the programming of plugins...what i mean is the type of research effort that is going into making real-life video games (ie. the random real-life simulation of explosions in games based on laws of probability and chance in relation to physics equations etc.) will also be used in audio plugins...

...the spring itself must be made 'visual' and concrete digitally and all the movements must be computed and programmed...then what i think you will find is stating what instruments are being used and computing of how the spring would move virtually would be processed and the audio signal would be computed accordingly...even the natural atmophere has an effect ie. moist, humid, cold...as you know Jamaica is hot and humid somethymes...this has an effect on the equipment...especially in the black ark recordings...you can almost feel the spring shaking the sweat from its metalic lock...

...it is all electric my, friend...our bodies hold electric currents...it may not be as 'dense' and 'warm' as the analogue spring reverb, but there will sure be some interesting sounds coming i tell you...the plugins are all in a primitive stage as i see it now in mass availability...

...but i think physics is the way forward to achieve 'real' emulation of natural acoustics...the key is understanding the subtle workings of mass, force and mirroring the denser sound waves of analogue processors...
...also, the programmers must add spiritual dimensions...like saying mantras as they programme...and incorporating mandalas in the encoding process...

yea, so it won't be the same, but it will be fascinating nonetheless...future of studios is gonna be like a Holodek...

...astrally yours...
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munky lee



Joined: 22 Jul 2001
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2003 1:57 pm    Post subject: spring reverb plug ins Reply with quote

Rootzilla said :
"the effect by the vibration of a spring. So it's not jus' electricity, it's also the _physics_ of the actual spring. And to model the way a piece of metal reacts to different amounts of energy at different frequencies would be quite complex, I guess...
Like Mike said, if ya feed your kick and you rimshot in the 'verb at the same time, the massive amount of energy the low-freq kick signal feeds into the spring is going to affect how the rimshot is modulated by the spring as well. So the problem would be simulating that interaction and crosstalk. "

well, this is the programmator job!
like any other plug-in, there is not only the lectricity problem, but so many more, even physical problems.
some virtual instruments emulated like pro52, take in consideration the changing of reaction of the oscillators with external temperature!

have you heard vstinstruments like the pro53, the B4 in real studio monitors?
have you heard plug-ins like the antares mic modeler? guitar amp simulators like the amplitube?

now today, wa are able to do those kind of things, and what about in 10 years? and only in ONE year? we don't know, but I'm already excited to test it!!!

yes, I love technology!!! and I love how roots reggae sounds by the hands of perry or tubby!!! I love the digital sound of the sleng teng (it was very cheap, but only 20 years ago!!!)
I love to try anything new, we have to always go forward, to always think positive!!!
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interruptor



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 1138
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2003 2:06 pm    Post subject: spring reverb plug ins Reply with quote

well said munky :-)
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Rootzilla



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Posts: 13

PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2003 4:07 pm    Post subject: spring reverb plug ins Reply with quote

Yes I,

Aww, why yuh fe galang so...

I was not saying it's not possible to do an digital approximation of the response of spring reverb today. I think it's entirely possible, and even possible to do it very well. Well enough that most people (myself included) won't be able to tell the difference. Or at least so that the difference is so small that you won't notice it in the context of a mix.

All I was saying was that the way those old effects treat the sound, it is not only the matter of electricity, and thus it is more difficult to model. And yes, if you want to produce all of your music in digital environment, (and I think this is entirely viable way of making music, and has produced some beautiful results, just not my cup of tea) I agree, it's the programmer's job to make that modelling possible.

One question remains, however. And that is, if you're producing entirely in the digital medium, employing totally different methods in creation than the pioneers, why should you try and recreate the sounds they were using? This is relevant to the goin' forward part you mentioned, true? Should we try and respec the esthetic of the pioneers, or should we try to come up with entirely different rules for the game? Of course, one reason is that it is more difficult to abuse the digital medium, producing sounds by accident (jus' try kickin' an algorithm!:)). But it believe all a these ting, they can and should coexist and help us mek it more exiting an' more powerful...

One Love,

Rootz
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Mike Zee



Joined: 20 Mar 2001
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2003 5:31 pm    Post subject: spring reverb plug ins Reply with quote

guys, what if I say this???:

Using an old real sring reverb in your production isn't a 'step back', isn't negative, isn't regressive - it's just using an old spring reverb in your studio-production today :)

and on the other hand:
using a new computer program trying to get (or even actually getting) the effect of an old real real spring reverb isn't really a progressive , isn't really futuristic or "positive" - it's just not using a real spring reverb in your studio production.

heh heh, what the heck am I talking here ?
I am trying to make a point, that it's is not about new/progressive/futuristic vs old/retro/conservative. And it's sounds like we are getting into that sort of "confrontation" , you know what I mean.
Let's say, if you really feel/think that the effect of spring reverb in dub is way overrated - this is fine. Well, you don't need it at all, maybe - there are other creative ways.
But if you want that effect - why not to just have it as real? You are still in 2003, unless you may think that everything which isn't digitized is RETRO and thus non-progressive :)

There's one thing I will never agree with thou : when people say : "Ah, it's all just electricity" - or similar. Programmers often say: "Ah, it's all just bunch of "zerros" and "ones". Yeah , right...

I've heard allots of digital synth instuments (including software-based) - and yeah - there are allots of amazing sounds from sounds which we used to know throgh never heard before. But I never heard any real organ comming from any digital synth - well, I can tell the difference. Same with any other instrument and effect. 24bit Cathedral Reverb from Lexicon is a real cool effect, but it is not what you hear in Cathedral - not even close - I can hear the difference, unless you never 've been in The Cathedral.
Btw, if you never heard a real good Choir in a large Cathedral Live - do yourself a good service - go and listen once, may change your views on everything in regard to sound and music production ... :), well, I'm not being really serious.
Not far from my house - there's a small rever, and there's a place where it makes a sharp turn - and it gets fast and noizy there - every time I pass that place - I think - I gotta get couple mics and record this magic sound. Then I think: nah - it is never going to sound like that on recording anyway, - (just electricity can't handle it...). I still may try some day....

./respects,

/Mike Zee

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