DUB DUB DISCUSSION BOARD
A place to discuss the production techniques of dub music.
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Question from the Confused: Multitrack Recording
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    DUB DISCUSSION BOARD Forum Index -> BEGINNERS QUESTIONS
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
KoCha



Joined: 25 Jan 2002
Posts: 259
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2003 10:12 am    Post subject: Question from the Confused: Multitrack Recording Reply with quote

Sorry... the yamaha md8 was discountinued at the end of year 2002... my resealer tell it to me.

Now just my point of view :
If you want to do roots, look for analog desk with analog recording it's sound better for this style. If you go do electro-dub look for digital recording with integreted digital recording because you didn't need the warmest of the analogu...

i found the cheapest for way for roots is to get analog desk and digital recording... but it's depand what your local used shops get...

If think what aleph say is the best for dubbing... oldskool rootical dub style! ya man!

But keep in minds that's very important, because the hardware make sounding different what you do. So hear to cd what you love, and try to find the combination you want..

Dub-Versions rules all Nations!

KoCha
www.Almighty-Dub.fr.st

_________________
KoCha, reggae-dub producer

Almighty Dub Records - Independent Reggae Dub Production
Open Dub Foundation - The WorldWide Dub Meeting
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mike Zee



Joined: 20 Mar 2001
Posts: 766
Location: NY, USA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2003 7:13 pm    Post subject: Question from the Confused: Multitrack Recording Reply with quote

C'mon, KoCha, really,
You can record/dub/mix roots dub with digital multitrack recorder. Analog-Tape "sound" isn't really major factor. Also to beat digital multitrack recorder you need pretty good Reel-To-Reel in good shape, not just anything, and casste multitrack will not do at all (it's only good for demos from sound quality point, just look at specs of any cassete recorder).
On the other hand if you make what you keep calling 'electro-dub' (what ever you mean by the way, because 'digital' and 'electro' have nothing to do with each othere), then you still may use analog reel-to-reel if you wish and take all the best what reel-to-reel has to offer and well, of course, to also deal with all the 'problems' what comes with tape-recording and limitations in editing, tracks re-recording etc.
My point is: the 'style of dub' isn't the reason why you decide to get analog reel-to-reel or digital recorder.
The most REASON why producers like analog tape is because it's easier to have a "happy custommer" - the recording REAL band. Analog recording is simply more 'robast', in general it is easier to record better sounding band on analog tape with good set of premps, while digital recording is more 'flexable', but to get the right sound, capturing 'mother nature' - the acustic sound from drummer, guitars, sax, tambourine, hand clappings, amp-cabs, ...what else...hmmmm, how about 'sound of rocker's hair-shake'? heh heh :)- you see all this stuff is very hard to put together with 'whimpy, sensetive' digital eqipment.
This is what Aleph is trying to say, as I understand... :)

okey, blah blah :)

later, guys,
/respects,
/Mike Zee

**********
ohhhhh, P.S.
Dan!
DO NOT get minidisc recorder. It's the last choice. The data is compessed, there is no headroom for recording, it sound like poo..:), really, also the MD-drive is a real bad thing from point of vew 'instant access', the whole format is absolute 'mess', MD-drive simply can not work like Hard-Drive. These machines are only good if you are working on some demos or sketches and it's a good thing in case you want to snail-mail you multi-track scatch to somebody, who has the same machine, or simply if you do all your music just for play-time fun.

_________________
Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE
ZEE DUB LAB
Dr ZEE WORKSHOP
MZEntertainment.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Dan



Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 1:54 am    Post subject: Question from the Confused: Multitrack Recording Reply with quote

Thanks Mike Zee. No, I won't buy anything with a minidisc. I think I will probably end up going with the stand alone digital recorder with hard drive and use an analogue mixer, effects, etc., and probably mix down to a cd recorder (something like Tascam RWU4 (I'm guessing at model name; don't have it in front of me.) Thanks to everyone for all their help on this question!! Peace. Dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
KoCha



Joined: 25 Jan 2002
Posts: 259
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 8:47 am    Post subject: Question from the Confused: Multitrack Recording Reply with quote

Combi-Nation... A/D can do both very good things... take the best from all ! just combi-nation !!!!

Mike... i'm perhaps not a "pro" but i can't find a hearing difference between my .wav and my record to my minidisc... Low to High freq respond perfect like digital device.

It's like the war 48/96hz... lol... A man say it's no difference a man say he can hear the difference... But at the end.. it's for very little difference... so personnaly i can't hear the difference between md-recording and hd-recording..
Perhaps my tracks are not enough powerful for making this difference visible...

Dan : keep in minde your digital workstation must have a cd-burner or an PC-interface for backuping data... very important!

KoCha
www.Almighty-Dub.com

_________________
KoCha, reggae-dub producer

Almighty Dub Records - Independent Reggae Dub Production
Open Dub Foundation - The WorldWide Dub Meeting
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
aleph



Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 72

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 11:55 am    Post subject: Question from the Confused: Multitrack Recording Reply with quote

Another problem with md compression is
the mask effect:
If their is two sounds a the same moment the md
will record only the more powerfull one,the most of the time it's not a problem because you can't hear
the less powerfull sound(the mask effect)but it
sometimes can change original sound, it can be heard in case off mastering..
In fact problems occurs when you apply tratment as mike said:it's difficult to hear the difference beetwen 48/96hz but if you compares how you can boost in 96hz with a plug or external 96hz device....

I'm not the digital ennemi(you can do roots dub with digital)but i just want to make
roots the easyest way possible because it's well knowed the more tratment you apply(EQ,comp) the less "natural" your sound will be(phaser and filters needs all hz),and this roots sound we need for dubbing was done simply like this sometimes without any compression or expensive items:a good place for your mic+tape sat,and highly smoked musicians off course(;-).
I've found nothing,all as been done 30year before,for that i would like to give thanks and a lot off respect to LSP with his Black Ark and King Tubby with his selfmade items the two kings off dub.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Looter



Joined: 13 Mar 2001
Posts: 111
Location: US

PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2003 6:52 pm    Post subject: Question from the Confused: Multitrack Recording Reply with quote

Also, I think most MD multi-trackers use the DATA minidiscs, which are harder to find than the regular audio ones.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
KoCha



Joined: 25 Jan 2002
Posts: 259
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2003 9:28 am    Post subject: Question from the Confused: Multitrack Recording Reply with quote

Yes you are all surely true.. i think my basic tracks are not enough powerful for hearing difference. But i tried recording my friend playing guitar and me blowing melodica over.... and now i hear little compression and difference.

So thx for learning to me..

A question :
What the "headroom" what the fonctionnement ?

Thx a lot

KoCha
www.Almighty-Dub.com

_________________
KoCha, reggae-dub producer

Almighty Dub Records - Independent Reggae Dub Production
Open Dub Foundation - The WorldWide Dub Meeting
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
HM



Joined: 06 Mar 2001
Posts: 235

PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2003 6:05 pm    Post subject: Question from the Confused: Multitrack Recording Reply with quote

The tape vs digital sound is all about the way
tape behaves when getting close to, and passing
the zero-point, (o dB), plug-ins like "magneto"
can ad this effect to a hole DAW-track, but my
VST-32 has the same algorithm merged into the
audio-engine itself, its then calle "true-tape"
and when entering this mode al tracks recorded
will be added this effect at the fly, steinberg
implimented true-tape in the largest cubase-
versions becourse people keep´t on taking about
the blessings of the tape-sound, many people
in the cubase-forums reported very intusiastic
how coll this true-tape is, I have not tried
to test seriously my self yet, but I think the
idea is good, but also hold for a fact that I
might end up to like the pure digital sound
much better, I LOVE clean sound and good cond-
mic´s, TLM-103 just added :-), I don´t think
that DUB should be low-fi, and don´t think we
should try to recreate 80´s sound with todays
equipment, we might hunt certain aspects about
the periode but also avoidt what was bad back
then, what realy makes a big diffrence is to
have the possibility to DUB a REAL band, and
not just using pre-made loops and midi-tracks
at least make it as live as possible, just to
as a little hand-played congas make mirracles
to a programmed track

HM
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mike Zee



Joined: 20 Mar 2001
Posts: 766
Location: NY, USA

PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2003 10:21 pm    Post subject: Question from the Confused: Multitrack Recording Reply with quote

KoCha, when I've said about MD8, that it has 'too little headroom' - it was actually a 'stupid thing' to say from 'technical point' ..heh heh, well ... nobody's perfect :)
I was thinking not about headroom, but rather recording range of the unit.
Digital recorders as I understand technically have no headroom, another words, when it's "0" - it's "0", so you gotta stay below - or you ar in trouble...heh heh. So in general, if digital recorder/device uses any form of data-compression - the recording dynamic range is effected. More data compression - less "room" for recording, before you hit the top - digital "0", and in digital world, when you hit "0" - you are walking on the edge. But, again, this has nothing to do with 'headroom'.
What's "headroom"? It's a "little space" on top where you still can jork around safely ... heh heh - that's my non-technical "definition" :)
Better to say: Headroom is the portion of the decibel range that starts where the sound begins to distort and ends at the point where the distortion becomes a unpleasant or unacceptable, sort of speak - BAD CLIP.
Well, theoretically (or technically) digital recorders still have some headroom, but practically - no head-room really. This is another complex subject , really. Some digital 'clips' are acceptable, depending on the lengs, short clips can be 'unaudiable' and thus 'promitable'...
KoCha, if you really wish to dig deeper into this, try to search google.com for some info about analog and digital metering, headroom, recording leveling etc... there's allots of blah-blah and serious info about it.... also not realated to the subject of this topic, really...;)

/respects,
/Mike Zee

_________________
Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE
ZEE DUB LAB
Dr ZEE WORKSHOP
MZEntertainment.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Dan



Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 7:06 pm    Post subject: Question from the Confused: Multitrack Recording Reply with quote

Hi Mike Zee: as an update to my recording adventures: I got an Akai DR8 on ebay, and it worked well for a couple of weeks, but now I keep getting a "sys err 6" message in the LED, and it won't let me do anything. I bring this up because I notice in one of your emails in this thread that you mentioned a similar problem with your one DR4, and I was just curious if you were able to get it resolved, at the shop or otherwise. The akai helpdesk is unfortunately not returning any of my emails. Thanks in advance for any light you might shed on this vexing problem (otherwise, I really liked the DR8 a lot). Peace. Dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mike Zee



Joined: 20 Mar 2001
Posts: 766
Location: NY, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 05, 2003 8:31 pm    Post subject: Question from the Confused: Multitrack Recording Reply with quote

grrrrrrrrrrr :(
Dan, this may be 'fixable' or may be a very bad situation, where you'll have to maybe send the machine to any available local akai-service shop...and it may cost you..., stuff like installing a new hard-drive as example.
Now, bad thing about these machines, that you can't fix much by yourself... there's no' much to be "fixed" in there to begin with... it's pretty much like a 'computer'.
Do you have manual? I need one if you don't.
First of all see manual if there's an 'error message' explanation there... usually it's like a table (message/explanation/what to do).
Err 6 may have some specific meaning. It can be something simple, like not enough HD space (meaning that you are symply out of 'record-time'...so you need to erase something before you can keep recording. There are some other specific situations when you get error message...but there's nothing really wrong with the machine.
*********
Now, the only reall 'fixer' is a sort-off "system-restoration" - it's like "using restoration CD-Rom for your computer in a sense...when you computer gets screwed....
One thing you should try to do is "format disc". You need to read and follow manual's step-by-step how to do it...which buttons to push in what order, you know. I can't tell you for sure...cos it's a bit different on DR4s. Btw as I remember you can download DR8 manual from akai official site (in case you don't have one). Also make sure you get the manual for exact software version of operation system of your machine, because the operations may be somewhat different in different V-versions.
OK, here's how it is in DR4s (it maybe similar in DR8s):
1.Press "SUB-MENU" key (it will start flashing)
2.Press "FORMAT" key. Number of "The Disc (scsi ID) may appear... if you have no external discs, then you don't need to select the disc.
3.Press STORE/ENT key "ErRSE" may appear on the display.
4.Use jog-wheel to select "For" (format)
5.Press STORE/ENT key
6."SUrE" may appear on the display. (Remember, that formating WILL erase ALL the data/recordings from your machine!)
7.Press STORE/ENT key. The machine will start formating process. Something may be flashing on the display (like "For"-flashing message)...and you will hear hard-disc working sound...similar to what computer's HD sound like....but usually it works more like rhythmiccally..and less 'random-sound' as computer's HD.... It sounds more like some sort of 'clock-device'.
When it's done...some other 'message' may appear on the display.... like "complete". You may need to press "STORE/ENT" key for one more last time.
Then you're done.

I have a card with authorized akai service centers. If you let me know what area you are...I can try to find address and phone No closest to you.
***********
btw, I have not fixed mine. Still have bad problem. I can't really record anything safely on it... just am using it as a synch-unit at the moment. I just didn't have time to deal with it.... mine looks liike need to be fixed at the service center....formating didn't help :(
*********
well, man, good luck
post an update ..how is it going.

/respects,
/Mike Zee aka DrZEE

_________________
Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE
ZEE DUB LAB
Dr ZEE WORKSHOP
MZEntertainment.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Dan



Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2003 12:40 am    Post subject: Question from the Confused: Multitrack Recording Reply with quote

Mike Zee: thanks for the kindly detailed answer. I'm sorry, I should have told you that I have a manual and that I have tried to erase and reformat and each time get a "fail" message. I don't think this augurs well. Luckily for me, the single authorized akai repair place in Pennsylvania is literally like 8 miles from my house, which is such a stroke of luck. Needless to say, my unit is heading to the shop tomorrow. Will keep you posted. Peace. Dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mike Zee



Joined: 20 Mar 2001
Posts: 766
Location: NY, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jun 06, 2003 1:53 am    Post subject: Question from the Confused: Multitrack Recording Reply with quote

8 miles ! :) indeed - lucky You!
Dan, drop a note here after its done. I really wish to know what info you get about what was wrong and what was fixed and how and what cost.
I have to pull myself together and fix mine... and maybe btw to install bigger drive and latest oper-system...cos the one I have problem with has 500MB drive and old system ...so it's not a much of a "recorder" in a sense :)

/later, man...
/Mike Zee aka DrZEE

_________________
Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE
ZEE DUB LAB
Dr ZEE WORKSHOP
MZEntertainment.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Dan



Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2003 3:47 pm    Post subject: Question from the Confused: Multitrack Recording Reply with quote

Mike Zee: took unit in yesterday for repair. The tech guy said it's probably a hard drive problem, and it may need to be replaced. Now, here's where it gets interesting. He told me that akai stuff can be a little hard to deal with in the older models because apparently akai itself is always teetering on the verge of going out of business. I have a 2 GB hard drive in my unit (I'm not using any external hard drives, yet), and he said that it would probably be cheaper to get something like a 40 GB hard drive and have that installed, than it would be to try to find the now pretty obsolete 2 GB version. Naturally I'd be all for getting the largest HD possible for my unit (why not?), but he told me that that can't always be done, because often the recording unit's software just doesn't recognize a larger-capacity drive. Anyway, he goes to two supply houses, and sometimes akai itself, for parts. Some places are cheaper than others, so he's going to shop and let me know (also, he stressed that the problem may not be the hard drive....that was just the guess off the top of his head). He's going to let me know the price, but did warn me that if it's the hard drive, we could be talking in the $400 - $500 range (in US money; not sure where you're located). Ouch! But, there's not much I can do. I'm just too far in at this point not to press forward (I'm sure this is a familiar feeling to many posters on this board). Plus, I really do like the akai. The tech guy said they were definitely the first really easy to use stand-alone hard drive recorders, and he really likes them himself....but unfortunately, like any computer, they can have hard drive problems. That's my tale for today. He's going to call me next week, so I'll let you know. Also, he said he doubts it was anything I did to cause the problem; that if it's the HD, it probably just crashed on its own. Peace. Dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mike Zee



Joined: 20 Mar 2001
Posts: 766
Location: NY, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2003 6:50 pm    Post subject: Question from the Confused: Multitrack Recording Reply with quote

wow, Dan, $400-500!!!
this is no-good, man :(
I don't know really what to say. I guess let it be to checked out and see for sure what's wrong. But , really , replacing HD for $500 - does not look like a good idea. For $500-600 you can get yourself another DR8 unit. I've seen on e-bay DR8 loaded with optional cards (which are about $200 themseves) for $595 - buy it now option. I've seen DR8 for under $350.
If your machine has problem with HD, but still can drive external HD without problems, then I'd say go for getting SCSI cable (btw, it's a "special" cable-sort of old-style, which may be a trick to find, I think you can ask the akai-center guy where to get one) and get external HD. 40GB???? hmmmmm, yeah , well, you don't really need to have a such huge HD. Get the one which DR8 can 'deal with'...., depending on operation system version, there's a limit on the size of HD. If I'm correct, the way it works, if you have 'too large' HD, then during formating process it will just format the HD to the size which operating system can 'deal with' and the rest will be just 'unused'..., but I'm not sure about it.
well, man,
drop a note, when hear final word on 'diagnosis' ...
/regards
/Mike Zee, aka DRZEE

_________________
Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE
ZEE DUB LAB
Dr ZEE WORKSHOP
MZEntertainment.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Dan



Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Sat Jun 07, 2003 8:20 pm    Post subject: Question from the Confused: Multitrack Recording Reply with quote

Mike Zee: thanks for the sympathy! Yeah, I don't know what I'll do. I've thought about just buying another unit on ebay, but that's where I got this one, and what's to say the next one I get just won't wind up with the same problem? I think your idea about maybe bypassing the internal HD altogether and going the scsi route with an external drive is a very good one, and that might just be an affordable way to get around this problem. We'll see what the tech dude says. Will keep you posted. Peace. Dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dan



Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Sat Aug 23, 2003 3:52 pm    Post subject: Question from the Confused: Multitrack Recording Reply with quote

Yo Mike Zee: here's another update on the hard drive recorder. The tech guy has not had any luck locating a replacement hard drive for my Akai. DR8 (I took it in June 6) and I just got tired of waiting to record again. So, he's going to buy the unit off me to use for parts (for more than I think I could have gotten off Ebay (who would buy a DR8 with a crashed drive when it weighs 30 lbs. to ship?). I've been selling off other musical equipment and old hi-end stereo pieces, and I got enough money together to buy a Fostex D2424LV, which I got for a good price off muscian's friend ($1,299, US).

In short, I decided to go with something new that will at least come with a warranty and won't be something that I can't upgrade or else end up outgrowing too quickly. It has 24 analog I/O, no mixer, and came with a 40GB hard drive, which is far more than I will need for a long time. 24 tracks is a lot more than I need (8 is about it, but nobody makes an 8 or 16 track standalone anymore). Plus, Fostex seems to be one of the more stable companies out there. Akai, Alesis and Mackie always seem to be on the verge of bankruptcy/shutting down altogether.

So, my lesson learned is this: don't buy old hard disk recorders unless you can get them dirt cheap (and I mean dirt cheap), or else can fix them yourself. Otherwise, it's just too much hassle. A stand alone made in 1996 might as well have been made in 1906 with how fast technology moves these days. I would have been better off spending the extra money all along.

That's it. If something goes wrong with this one, Fostex can worry about it! Hope you're doing well. Peace. Dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Looter



Joined: 13 Mar 2001
Posts: 111
Location: US

PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 7:29 am    Post subject: Question from the Confused: Multitrack Recording Reply with quote

I hate to repeat myself over and over, showing how partial I am to my setup. But, if you are a beginner at dub, I would recommend you scrape together $150-300 and buy an 80's vintage TASCAM 246 portastudio. It must be this model if you want the most versatile, easy to operate portastudio, and it is the only one really suited for dub. It is a powerhouse! You digital-only guys may question the sound quality but how many have you worked with? At double the regular cassette speed and with DBX noise reduction (and proper tape formulation) it sounds amazing, fooled many experts at the recording magazines, they thought recordings produced on one were full studio productions.

Check out the album "Robbin the Hood" by Sublime, one of my favorite white, american reggae/punk groups. Many of the tracks were done on the 246, along with a TR-808 and tape echo in the lead singer/guit player's living room! Downlaod their version of Tosh's "Steppin' Razor". I bet you've never imagined it done the way these guys did it!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
Mike Zee



Joined: 20 Mar 2001
Posts: 766
Location: NY, USA

PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 7:33 am    Post subject: Question from the Confused: Multitrack Recording Reply with quote

Dan, thanks for posting :)
well, what can I say. I guess i'd agree with your advice to NOT to buy used HD-recorder (if possible)...in a sense it's like buying used computer, you know.... You'd buy used computer only if it's like almost for nothing...like for 20-50 bucks or something ..heh heh.
OK, at least you've made it clear for yourself what to do. BTW, 24 tracks isn't that much, really, when you start using the machine..you'll see. It's only 12 stereo instruments/voices for the mix...so it's like about right for music production :)

take care, man,
hope to talk to you later her... about what ever....
/respects,
/Mike Zee aka DrZEE

_________________
Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE
ZEE DUB LAB
Dr ZEE WORKSHOP
MZEntertainment.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Dan



Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 4:41 pm    Post subject: Question from the Confused: Multitrack Recording Reply with quote

Looter: I hear ya, man. I have nothing against analog recorders, and many analog recordings are just simply wonderful...but there's much to be said for digital when it comes to recorders. I remember when editing meant a razor blade, white gloves, wax pencil and the splicing block. For my money, you can't beat digital for putting down tracks: clean, easy editing; virtual takes, no tape degradation, endless ping-ponging, instant access to anything, anywhere in miliseconds...
I've heard a lot of great things about the those early Tascams, but my record right now with used equipment is not very reassuring.

Like a lot of folks on this board, my set-up is both analog (my mixing board) and digital, whatever seems best for the job (my effects are both). I don't do any sampling or MIDI stuff now, but who knows in the future? If I chose to go those routes in the future, the Fostex can handle it all....if I don't, no harm done. Peace. Dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    DUB DISCUSSION BOARD Forum Index -> BEGINNERS QUESTIONS All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group