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using delays instead of reverbs on vocals

 
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versuviusx



Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 6:07 pm    Post subject: using delays instead of reverbs on vocals Reply with quote

hi
i'm basically trying to get more interested in delays. see a lot of producers use delays instead of reverbs on vocals. it appears to be a reverb but in actuality it really it's a delay effect instead. so i'm trying to find the best plugin for if i can. it's a really hard process. it would be awesome if i could find a really cool delay plugin especially made for vocals which could compete with pro audio. that's another issue...i'm still not sure right now what is better pro audio hardware or vst pligins. i know that hardware delays or reverbs are nothing but software, but i think its possible that the hardware still may be better because the hardware was made by someone who has studied it for generations, and a lot of the vst stuff have been made by people who are programmers and not really audio engineers. i dunno. i'm trying to go for a radiohead/coldplay vocals fx....where the reverbs are actually delays but they sound like lush reverbs which aren't muddy or thin and yet the vocals are big and clear.
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interruptor



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 1138
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:29 pm    Post subject: using delays instead of reverbs on vocals Reply with quote

my mate Dan made the presets for the free analogic delay and he included a special vocal delay preset. this may be exactly what you need. with some fine adjusting you'll probably get what you want..

i am not familiar with the radiohead/coldplay vocal sound. as a starting point you should listen very closely: is it just one delay or several repetitions? is the delay mono or are there different delays on the left and right side? if there are several repetitions, do they all sound the same or ist the sound evolving in some way? do the delays sound dry or like coming from a room?
i think if you are clear about these points it should be no problem to achieve what you want with most delay units or plugins


on prorec if found this:
"Delay: I also like to add some delay to the lead vocal. A long delay ( > 250 ms) will reinforce the vocal and make it stronger if itís matched to the tempo of the song. A short delay can "enlarge" the sound of the vocal - use a setting near 30 ms to "double" the vocal, and keep it low in the mix. It will make your vocal fatter, without adding an obvious effect."
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Mike Zee



Joined: 20 Mar 2001
Posts: 766
Location: NY, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:29 pm    Post subject: using delays instead of reverbs on vocals Reply with quote

what is better pro audio hardware or vst pligins
depending on what pro-audio hardware and what vst-plugIns. Some better than the outher, also will depending allot on HOW exactly do you use it (meaning what your production setup is). If you produce music with computer only, then you do not even need to worry about comparing. If you have more extended production studio, real mixing desk/console, if you record vary instrument, using mics, other hardware equipment etc combining with computer software as production tool.... then it will also depen on what specific task you are after.

i know that hardware delays or reverbs are nothing but software.
Well, this was said many times in many ways...heh heh :), but it is simply NOT true. Software is only a part of any digital hardware processor. There are very important components in each one, to name few: processor, a/d-d/a converter, pre-amp/amp, some have vary dedicated controls etc.... all in compination effect dramaticly the result which you get from hadware processor. Add to the picture the fact, that when you are using hardware processor other parts/components of your set-up become (mixer, mixer's pre-amp/amp, eq, other equipment if in use etc) a part of 'process'.
Non of this applies, when using plug-in working on your computer/software based projust.
*******
hardware was made by someone who has studied it for generations
well, maybe most, but not all... not nowdays anyway :)

lot of the vst stuff have been made by people who are programmers and not really audio engineers,
that's maybe true, but again, not all some plugs were created by people who were/are audio-engineers (it does not make them better automaticly, thou)(free/cheap plugs included :)).
The best software production tools are created by a team of engineers and programmers, not by one single universal-mind person ...;-)

*****
I wish I knew about vocal-delay plugIn... never heard of one. There are tone of delay plugins thou... so many, more than you can hendle... Just try some, find the one which does what you think is cool. It sounds like you are looking for smething very specific, you the only person who knows what it is exactly you expect the Plug to do for your vocal takes.

/respects,
/Mike Zee aka Dr. ZEE

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Mike Zee



Joined: 20 Mar 2001
Posts: 766
Location: NY, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 7:38 pm    Post subject: using delays instead of reverbs on vocals Reply with quote

Daniel, heh heh, you 'green' quote is the one which you just have to use, if your voice can't handle it ...lol, another words, if your voice sounds like old 1985 WV engine with bad air-filter, then you need to apply a bit of a delay, then it may sort of start sounding like certified pre-owned 1999 BMW ...heh heh i'm just kiddin'around :)
I had to use this trik any time when ever I dare record myown voice... grrrrrrrrrrr

anyhow,
/respects,
/mz aka Dr. ZEE

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versuviusx



Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 1:50 pm    Post subject: using delays instead of reverbs on vocals Reply with quote

i did check out the free plugins that you offer and i think they are amazing. they really sound analog and it's fucking crazy. it reminds me of radiohead. i love being able to take a vsti and add delays to them.
i may have to get a reverb hardware unit or i may be able to find a vst plugin. i hope i can find a plugin as i would like to keep it minimialistic.
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versuviusx



Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 8:06 pm    Post subject: using delays instead of reverbs on vocals Reply with quote

here is what i got from some one else :

"
Hi,
reverbs on vocals can be very tricky indeed. Try to get a nice verb trailer, and the vox goes into a tunnel and gets distant. Well, understand thats the purpose of a reverb, is to make it seem far away, so IMO, you have to get a little creative.
A method that works well for me is to mult the main vox at a patchbay before getting to the console. I'll mult it into three signals.
On one, I leave pretty much alone except EQ. This channel helps to preserve the upfront presence of the vox track. I'll pan this either 2'oclock or 10 oclock.
Then on another channel, I'll use the vox signal to add the effects through my aux sends. I'll typically use a plate reverb, with about 10-12ms predelay. Ducking the reverb also helps to keep the original signal from getting smeared.
Then on another send I'll use a delay / echo. Its a good idea to put these in time with the tempo of the song. You can find charts that give the delay in milliseconds for the different delay notes (ex. eight notes, dotted eigths etc) based on the songs tempo. If you have extra channel inputs, I like to have all my aux returns come into the console via line ins on seperate channels rather than my effect returns. you usu get a bit more flexibility with the EQ etc. I'll pan this 2nd vox channel opposite of the unalterd channel...ex.. if this is at 10 ocl, the unaltered at 2 ocl. That small separation gives the vox a bit more breadth without getting to phasey or noticeable.
Finally, on the third vox input, I'll insert a good compressor. This gives the vox extra chest and helps it to breath a bit better. If you want an aggressive vox, you can hit it hard with the comp, and bring the fader up until you can start to notice its effect on the mix. If you want a more subtle vox, back off on the comp a bit. I like to leave this track straight up the middle to reinforce the center image.

I hope this helps a bit. Getting the vox just right is a never ending puzzle. Without a doubt though, I got much better results when I multed the signal before the console and applied the strategies above.

Good luck,
Mark "
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versuviusx



Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 8:09 pm    Post subject: using delays instead of reverbs on vocals Reply with quote

my question is whatis ducking?
and what is multing?
if anyone knows please post.
i won't give up on this.
also has anyone made large amount of vocal delay presets for the analog delays that you can get here? and also are there any projects concerning delay plugins in the future?
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Nike Zee



Joined: 11 Jan 2004
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Sun Jan 11, 2004 8:44 pm    Post subject: using delays instead of reverbs on vocals Reply with quote

I have no idea what Mark means by 'multing'.... maybe he simply means 'multiplication'... as result of delay ...????
*******
"Ducking" is very common method of automaticly controling level of the signal when the other signal is in presence in the mix (or reaches selected level). It is being achived by using compressor/limiter with sidechain option.
Most common application of 'ducking' is to lower level of background music in the presence of narration.
The signal to be 'ducked' is being sent through compressor/limiter. The control-signal is sent into compressor/limiter's channel's sidechain.
When control-signal in present - the 'ducked' signal's level lowering (or even muting, depending on setting).
So in the case of reverb-ducking: the signal from reverb processor is being limited to the selected level by compressor/limiter when the dry signal (voice in our case) is in presence, but inbetween 'words/phrases and after the reverb's level is all the way as is set in the mix/on the reverb-processor.

I am not sure how do you do this in software/plug ins. I've heard some software/plugins have 'sidechain' "options" or "feature"... but I don't know personally...simply 'cos I have no experience with this kind of software....

/later,
/Mike Zee aka Dr. ZEE
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interruptor



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 1138
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 10:20 am    Post subject: using delays instead of reverbs on vocals Reply with quote

as i understand what mark means by "multing" is splitting up the signal in three equal signals which are then processed separately and afterwards mixed together. he suggests using three channels strips on the main mixer to bring these three voice signals in the mix after the processing.

in a sequencer software you simply have to find a way to feed your voice signal to three separate channels on the audio mixer. then you can insert basic plugins in each channel to your liking: delay, reverb, compressor.

theoretically one could also program one single plugin that does all this processing alone. i have not heard of anything like it though.
if the method mentioned by mark is a standard used by many producers i'm sure we'll soon see such a plugin on the market soon..
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versuviusx



Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 4:53 pm    Post subject: using delays instead of reverbs on vocals Reply with quote

ok guys i think i understand now.
1. i don't know how i'm going to do the ducking with cubase SX. but i think i understand the idea. basically i want to duck the reverb when i speak and have the reverb come after i'm done. i think that's the idea. and basically i think i could copy and past each track where i have 3 vocal tracks all the same, and i just add fx to each individual one. i think that is the idea. if you guys haven't checked out coldplay or radiohead....you guys should, if not for the pleasure of listening to it, but maybe for getting an idea of what i'm talking about when i mean great reverbs or delays on vocals. for example i think "green eyes" by coldplay has some great sounding vocals. yeah he has a great voice, but without the fx it wouldn't be nearly as cool. please check it out. i'd like to hear what you guys think.
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interruptor



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
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Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:38 pm    Post subject: using delays instead of reverbs on vocals Reply with quote

i listened to radiohead's last cd and was attracted by their very analog sounding intros. interresting sound textures really. the songs as a whole i did not like at all i have to admit.. just not my style i guess

i will see if i get a possibility to listen to green eyes..
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versuviusx



Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 4:26 pm    Post subject: using delays instead of reverbs on vocals Reply with quote

please check out green eyes. you probably won't like the style...but i really like the reverbs. if you could check em out and let me know what you think and how you would go about getting them...please let me know. thanks
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Mike Zee



Joined: 20 Mar 2001
Posts: 766
Location: NY, USA

PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 7:31 pm    Post subject: using delays instead of reverbs on vocals Reply with quote

Listening to the track and then guessing how something was achived from technical point is nearly waste of time. Nowdays it's a combination of jungle of possible alternative ways. If you really want to know how some specific track was created you better do search and find some info/interview with people who actually were involved.
"RushOfBlood..." was 'cooked' in ProTools on PowerMac, bunch of Hi-End plugins included ... (you can read some notes about it here: Coldplay - Mac In Their Place,
how and what???? hmmmmmmmmm ask them :)

I have personal bad feeling about rock-bands who cook their releases in Pro-Tools. Not to say that something is wrong here, not to mention that it is hard to find any today's band who doesn't.... well, depending on what exactly The Producer does, but it just gives me some strange bad feelling... felling of distrust sort of speak.
/respects,
/Mike Zee aka Dr. ZEE

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ZEE DUB LAB
Dr ZEE WORKSHOP
MZEntertainment.com
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versuviusx



Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 5:18 pm    Post subject: using delays instead of reverbs on vocals Reply with quote

mike
what do you mean cooked?
i don't understand. i thought everyone uses pro tools or cubase SX to make there music. also thanks so much for the article on coldplay. i will definitley check it out.
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versuviusx



Joined: 09 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 5:28 pm    Post subject: using delays instead of reverbs on vocals Reply with quote

now i understand what you mean by cooked. i thought they were using hardware and then just recording it with pro tools but it appears that they used a lot of software and pluggins to get the sounds they have. i think as long as you get the sound you're looking for...go for it.
but i think playing live after you have cooked it, could be challenging trying to get that cd/commercial sound that you recorded.
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interruptor



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 1138
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 11:54 pm    Post subject: using delays instead of reverbs on vocals Reply with quote

ok.. i listened to green eyes.

from what i heard i would try the following:
- take a digital reverb (hardware box or plugin) select a medium sized room delay preset with a big stereo spread. then see whether you can edit the predelay parameter - this is the time between the start of your signal and the start of the generated effect. set the predelay time to a long value (maybe around 100 ms) and see what happens.

if you cannot edit this parameter connect a delay effect in series with the reverb. use a simple delay of around 100 ms without feedback (one echo only). Set the "dry/wet" parameter fully to wet (no original signal).

probably you additionaly need to send some of the original signal directly to a reverb without the predelay.

i hope this helps..
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versuviusx



Joined: 09 Jan 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 18, 2004 9:13 pm    Post subject: using delays instead of reverbs on vocals Reply with quote

hi thanks for everything. i will definitley check it out. probably tonight. it may not be your type of music but i really like it and i really like the vocals. i think it's pheasible, but you just have to work it. i've never found a reverb or delay plugin that i can just hook up and be satisfied for the vocals. thank you so much for everything. i'll let you know how it turns out. thanks
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:58 am    Post subject: using delays instead of reverbs on vocals Reply with quote

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