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How can you Dub live?
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John Ellison IV



Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:17 am    Post subject: How can you Dub live? Reply with quote

Wait, Dub was made in the studio as a remixing technique. How can you do this live? How is this possible.
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Mike Zee



Joined: 20 Mar 2001
Posts: 766
Location: NY, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 7:54 am    Post subject: How can you Dub live? Reply with quote

The band is playing, singer(s)'s singing (or recording on multitrack recorder is playing).... instruments, mics/voices are sent through chnls of the mixing desk, bunch of effect-processors, black boxes and such are connected to the mixer, then to PA and huge speaker-system setup, the "dub-master'" is seating behind the desk ....who is moving sliders, twisting knobs, pushing buttons etc, while swinging his head to the riddim... everybody are HI and happy ... :)

/Mike Zee aka Dr. ZEE

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John Ellison IV



Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2004 11:33 pm    Post subject: How can you Dub live? Reply with quote

ohhhhhhhhh, cool.
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Hans De Ley



Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2004 11:23 pm    Post subject: How can you Dub live? Reply with quote

You can also show your dubbingskills live ON STAGE. There are different methods. -you can pass all needed audio singnals (singer, snare drum, guitar, sampler, synth,..) through your own onstagemixer which is connected with your favourite fx-racks. The whole mix goes to the FOH mixer. In this case a good monitor system and an intense soundcheck are required because you can't hear how your mix sounds through the PA speakers. -you can also use the 'direct outs' of your mixers. This means that the different input signals (in your mixer) are send individually to the FOH mixer so that he can do the main mix and you can add the fx in complete dubwise style....while the crowd looks to your action....
...greetz...
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Eating Betty



Joined: 23 Jan 2002
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri Mar 05, 2004 10:46 pm    Post subject: How can you Dub live? Reply with quote

I did some live dub mixing from tapes a couple of times two years ago.
At the time I was still using an 8 track cassette Tascam machine so I had the faders and EQs to work on. For effects I had a Lexicon digital reverb (not ideal)on one send and guitar pedals Phaser and delay on the other send. Very simple and easy to manage. I don't know how I would manage with more than 8 tracks though. The audio out was connected to the sound system's mixer and blasted through some powered speakers. Big and loud. One problem - first time the DJ's delay effect was on for my entire dub mixing session so I had weird timing problems - my delay and his delay being out of sync.
Another difficulty was gaps between dubs - changing tapes was time consuming and sort of screwed up the momentum.
Still most people said it sounded great. Now that my dub is completely computer based I have to figure out a way of doing that on stage. Any suggestions?
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John Ellison IV



Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:52 am    Post subject: How can you Dub live? Reply with quote

This sort of sounds like a proto-type of turntablism...y'know like your doing a live remix.
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Mike Zee



Joined: 20 Mar 2001
Posts: 766
Location: NY, USA

PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 11:32 am    Post subject: How can you Dub live? Reply with quote

Now that my dub is completely computer based I have to figure out a way of doing that on stage. Any suggestions?

heh heh :)...here's not serious really, but as a semi-joking point ;-)
You see, if you bring on stage couple of cool turntables, a mixer, some strange blinking boxes making strange-kool sounds when DJ touches 'em, couple of keyboards, you stand behind all that, spin tha'shiny plastic discs over your head and on the tables, scatchin'...moving around etc etc ..... this is all cool-looking stuff, it all looks like a cool dude dancing around with cool toys...you can entertain the flock around you with this stuff :)
A Personal Computer? On Stage? Hah hah hah... (well it was done actually). So how does it look? A Dud on stage behind a PC? heh heh....looks like an office nurd or or ? hmmmmm? ... like a cashier in K-Mart?. Personal Computer ain't cool at all nowdays, it is somewhat like a phone in the kitchen or like a coffe-maker or similar everyday device... try to entertain with that...:)

/respects
Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE
ZDL

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John Ellison IV



Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 3:23 am    Post subject: How can you Dub live? Reply with quote

Well, it's been done. Someone using a computer on stage. In fact, I have a tape of Frank Zappa using a personal computer and his Synclavier on stage.
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Peter Peter M



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:53 am    Post subject: How can you Dub live? Reply with quote

if you can move the crowd with a pc on stage why not...no-one cares that sherwood or mad prof stand behind the desk tweaking for their solo shows..they just wonder at the sounds and feel that they are in good hands for the duration

is this a proper "live" show? dunno..but if not then neither is a dance
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Mike Zee



Joined: 20 Mar 2001
Posts: 766
Location: NY, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:38 am    Post subject: How can you Dub live? Reply with quote

...no-one cares that sherwood or mad prof stand behind

well, I do care. so there :) If I want to see what PC(s) can do and bunch of dudes standing behind them - I'd go to local weekly hame-computer trade-show. We have them at Civic Center all the time. It's fun, you know ... blah blah

they just wonder at the sounds...
..well, then why to go to see the "concert" ...just seat at home, fire-up your home-theater ...and enjoy the sound.

/respects,
/Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE

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Peter M



Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 12:53 am    Post subject: How can you Dub live? Reply with quote

maybe i should clarify: when I said non-one cares I meant that folks are not upset that there is not a "real band" up there, and by wondering at the sounds I meant that they ARE appreciative of the fact that it is being cooked up on the fly just that they do not necessarily not have to stand watching it as a spectacle. Here when they have played they were positioned where noone could see what they were manipulating (maybe a video proj would have been instructive)

no diss to live dubbing and no big up to the pc really...
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Mike Zee



Joined: 20 Mar 2001
Posts: 766
Location: NY, USA

PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:56 am    Post subject: How can you Dub live? Reply with quote

Peter, I can sense what do you mean, really :)
But just call for a common sense, man.... forget about all these "academic" arguments ala ...it does not matter how you do ....what you use...art is art as long the result is "an art"..blah blah
Just look at this from a common sense, from a common 'folk' who wish to get entertaind at a life MUSICAL show...of any form.
You see, to me regardles what and how you standing/seating behind a PC or a laptop... do get your sounds out of it on-the-fly or not...it just not gonna' fly anywhere for me. What ever you do with PC ...ain't gonna entertain a single hair on me.... it's just plain and simple.
I can say it again, if I want to see what computer can do for Ya' - I'll go to computer-trade show.
And, actually I recall ...let's say over ten-fifteen years ago or so ..., back in time when computers were sort of cool sh*t things, I remember some bands had a dos-sequencers running beats/or some grooves... while the rest of the band played something else...., electronic drum-pads also were SUPER-COOL things....and a guy would just stand behid couple of them and keep hitting , triggering that bash-bash electric snare shot.... and the lead-singer would sing some sort of pop-song ...yeah electo-synth-pop.

Now, if I see a computer is nothing more than an everyday household device.
If anybody wish to impress me with some music production software skills - I'm not going to view it as an entertainment show, but rather something like some trade-show for this specific software..... that's all. And the better sound comes out of it - more likely I may wish to buy this software or learn how to use it, but am I going to be impressed/or entertained by the guy who 'demonstrates all this'???? ha ha - no way in hell...it's just silly even to think about it. All I can say - well, this guy really knows how to use this sh*t. End of story.
And I am actually a guy who may at least express some sort of interest in it, simply because I was/am into computer-based music-production myself, buy people who never had anything to do with, they will be completely bored to death, man by a such show, thay'll just say:"...oh ...ah? well ..sorta fun... yeah.hmmm?..what ever , let's get outa' here ..let's go to the bar...get some beer or something ...more fun, than watchin' this dude playing with PC".... heh heh

okey, man,

fun blah here :)
/respects

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tubbyrule



Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:24 pm    Post subject: How can you Dub live? Reply with quote

Im currently in a band trying to play dub music- obviously a contradiction...however i dont see what particularly is wrong with the attempt. ive been told if its live its reggae, but our style is focusd mainly around a pumping bassline hooked with the drum beat, and chords from synth and guitar dropping in and out. To turn into real dub though is our aim- so are you saing we should run everythin through a mixer, and have a king tubby style figure on stage with us, dropping different instruments in and out, while we keep playing no matter wat? could get confusing methinks.
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selector waxx



Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 1

PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 4:31 pm    Post subject: How can you Dub live? Reply with quote

you can do that, make your tracks with a daw (cubase or sonar), and with a midi controller, you can remixe your dubs live on stage with your daw and it's soundeffects.

but you wil need a lot of equipment

a decent dedicated pc or mac (last one is best, but also very expensive) (count about 2000-4000 )

cubase sx (700 )or sonar (?) + a lot of vst synth's (600- ... )

a good soundcard (low latency asio soundcard with 24bit/96khz sampling in/out) (200-2000 )

a good controller (mackie controller +- 1500 )

a tc powercore firewire sfx plugin (to do realtime effects) (1500 )

and if you want to use some live musicians, singers ed you need also a seperate mixer with a few compressors and sfx wich will cost you at least another 2000 )

this is a decent full set up, i heared people doing very good things with less, or older equipment.
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tubbyrule



Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:17 pm    Post subject: How can you Dub live? Reply with quote

nono- thats the point, we want to play it all live. not record the tracks beforehand
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sir_chin



Joined: 11 Jul 2004
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Thu Aug 26, 2004 11:32 pm    Post subject: How can you Dub live? Reply with quote

bless!
to play a steady riddim with the mix eng. doing the mutes etc. would mean you play in such a large venue where the sound of drums (when muted in the mix but still played by the drummer) don't reach the audience. very unlikely.
the dub responsability has to be shared beetwen the musicians (expecially the drummer) and the mix eng.
the musician would take care of the dynamics and mutes while the eng would provide panning, eqing and working the effects (echoes, reverbs etc.).
guidance&light...
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Tom



Joined: 15 Oct 2001
Posts: 5

PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 6:17 am    Post subject: How can you Dub live? Reply with quote

I play with a "live dub" band in Chicago, The Drastics. We've been playing clubs for 6 months, and we've developed a way (through trial and error) that does what we need to do pretty nicely. First off, we're coming from a group improvisation idea, so there's no "master organizer." The bassist drops out when he feels it, for example, and everyone's constantly reacting to these events. And our guitarist runs a mixer (a 12-channel Soundcraft) that runs various effects (Space Echo, phaser unit, etc.) For the setup, we let the soundguy mike everyone for the PA. For the dub, we set up a second set of mikes for every instrument (guitar, rhodes, horns, snare drum, organ goes direct) and run those into our onstage board, and output into our guitarists amp. This amp is being miked by the PA, so the dubbed signal gets picked up that way. Then every instrument is sending a dry signal to the PA and a signal to be used (or not used) by the dub organizer. Each member is in control of his "muting." By contrast, the band Dub Is A Weapon from NYC uses a similar setting (at least both times I've seen them in Chicago) but their dub organizer (Dave Hahn) cues the various members for dropouts, thus getting more of the "one person's vision" idea of original dub. This setup has worked for us from the shittiest sound systems to large clubs like the House of Blues, and took our soundchecks from 30 minutes to 10-15, since the dub effects are basically just another instrument to mike. The "guitar and dub through the same amp" technique also works nice because we typically play "rock" clubs and engineers always crank the guitar at these type venues, thus assuring that the dub effects are well heard.

Peace
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tubbyrule



Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Mon Aug 30, 2004 1:43 pm    Post subject: How can you Dub live? Reply with quote

what a great idea!
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Jet



Joined: 26 Jul 2003
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 12:03 am    Post subject: How can you Dub live? Reply with quote

I think this is also a nice way to make an entretaining performance: the people see the dub master twist a knob of the mixer and hear a "thunder snare" comming from a Marshall or a Vox. "GEEE... HE'S GOT A MIXER THING AND GREEN SCREENS ALL OVER!". Beats the faceless-DJ-typing-an-email of contemporary electronica. A small mixer, practice combo amp, a few mics and two stompboxes could add up to the price of a very good laptop, but you won't get the same techno-pagan feeling of an extravagant setup.
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Pete Collis



Joined: 24 Sep 2004
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 4:49 pm    Post subject: How can you Dub live? Reply with quote

hey,
my band The Deverills has 2 guitar/keyboard players, a DJ providing scratches and vinyl FX, a vocalist and myself playing keyboards and controlling the dubs. I have all of the instruments, a powerbook laptop and mic's coming into my 16 channel mixer. I assign each sound to a sub-group (Gtrs, FX, vocals, drums, etc) and send those to the front of house soundman and then I mess up the individual instrument channels on the desk with echoplex, mutator, spring reverb, etc. It works well and it means that people can jam within a vaguely structured track. and who cares about the audience hearing an instrument carry on playing when you've muted it - you've never heard the bleed on countless dubs from the Studio 1?
Pete C - The Deverills, UK
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