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Simulating a club PA in the studio - convolution method

 
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interruptor



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 1103
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 5:12 pm    Post subject: Simulating a club PA in the studio - convolution method Reply with quote

fellow dubheads..

as i mentioned some weeks ago in another thread (here) i had an idea about how to prevent ugly surprises when playing a new track in public for the first time.

i just finished a set of impulse responses for this purpose:
Club Simulation - explanation and download page
if possible let me know how it works for you. Just add your comments below..

respect,
daniel aka the interruptor
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Mike Zee



Joined: 20 Mar 2001
Posts: 766
Location: NY, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 2:28 pm    Post subject: Simulating a club PA in the studio - convolution method Reply with quote

WOW! Daniel! looks like you got into some serious 'research' there.
that's very interesting way of 'dealing with the task'.
Now what I was thinking, you may want to try to do and see how it goes and then maybe develope on your 'system' :)
I think you need to do some your own experiment now. Let's say , first you make some totally new track/mix.... (meaning something what you never heard in the club and something that would not be easy for you to guess how it will (or may) sound in the club (another words do not use some tracks which you've heard in the club before, put yourself in the position of a producer who is trying to use your 'club simulation tool' while working on new track and having no experience in playing club).
So, first, 'master' your mix/track 'normal way' on your studio monitors and make it the best way it sounds in the studio to meet your personal taste (do not adjust anything by guessing how it may be different in the club - just make the best sounding mix as it goes with your monitors). Record this mix and name it "studio mix". Then run your best studio-mix through your 'special plug-in'.... and while listening make/apply adjustments to make it sounding the best while monitoring through your 'club simulation', then record the 'adjusted' mix and name it "club mix". Then go to the actual club and play both mixes there ... and compare there..... So this way you get some idea if the tool you are creating actually has practical application. Another words, if the "club mix" sounds better in the club than the first "studio mix", then the tool is usefull in general. If not, then you'll need to digg deepper into and see what's not working, etc....
that's a tough task you 've got into. Too many issues... really, mic, acoustics, the very fact that when playing 'simulation' in studio ...the studio acoustics and monitors characteristics get into the picture... another words, even if the simulation is accurate, then the 'reproduction of the simmulation' may have issues... see what I mean.

anyway, keep it up.... that's a good start.

/respects,
/Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE
zee dub lab

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interruptor



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 1103
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:23 pm    Post subject: Simulating a club PA in the studio - convolution method Reply with quote

yes mike, that would be the final test of the method.
trying out new mixes at a club often helps me to hear problems which i didn't hear anymore after hours of fiddling on details in the studio. sometimes one tends to overlook obvious problems until hearing the music on the big sound. after realizing it i can usually hear what's wrong on the studio monitors too.
I am quite confident the impulse responses will help, but in fact I have to try it out on a new production first..
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Mike Zee



Joined: 20 Mar 2001
Posts: 766
Location: NY, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 7:07 pm    Post subject: Simulating a club PA in the studio - convolution method Reply with quote

You know... I've got this totally wild thought out of this.... just imagine :) ...
In some future.... every major music production software has a special plugin... or call it some sort of 'universally' standartized 'unit' "Venue IR tester" ( IR stands for impulse response) which let's you to adjust your mix for a specific venue (club, hall, arena etc...).... and with this in mind professional djs actually keep their mixes not as final mix, but rather special file which you can adjust (basicly it's like multitrack file so you can still non-destructivly make some adjustments and save it as 'special mix'.
Now on the other end, there's a special software/hardware unit (special device - let's call it "IR generator", a box, like mp3-player with audio outs, mic in, long cord, some 'special standrd for this specific job mic and special set of signals to be played through the system and to be recorded at the club and automatically save as a special file. This special file would be like a part of Club/Hall/Venue presentation pacage, which can be transferred from the device to computer, uploaded to special site/bank and then d-loaded buy producer/dj... or maybe even available at special 'Venue IR world bank' on line.... it's like going through clubs address book... you just enter club name, address...-search- and you get the file. So before you go to perform or run the party at some club, arena or what have you, you first get that file.... save it at some special folder ... and it is available at your drop-down manue in your re-mix/production software. The software actually can have a simple unit... so, let's say you simply open the menue, go to ... 'clubs'... 'find IR file'... enter name... do search... the software automaticly search the 'IR bank' on-line... you get your file. And then you play your 'pre-mix' at your home or studio, which sounds specificly like it would in the club you are going to perform next,... so you prepair your mixes ready to sound the best in this specific club and on their system. Also as the clubs may upgrade their sound systems once in a while, or do some hall reconstruction etc... so they also can update their "IR file" online.... again using that special 'device' - "IR-generator"...

Shitty sounding parties problem through out the world can be solved ...lol, You started it, man

heh heh heh .... feauture is here man... ,
Daniel, you should patent this idea... it may become new 'dolby nr' thing of the 21st century ... :)


/later,
/Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE

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interruptor



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 1103
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:29 pm    Post subject: Simulating a club PA in the studio - convolution method Reply with quote

who knows.. your idea doesn't sound that improbable, i'd say.
one might think even one step further: inverse impulse responses to eliminate the venues sound characteristics and thus hear the prefect music as intended by the composer. as far as i understand the page linked above it would only work for one listeners position and one instrumentalist though. ==> only suitable for dictatorial regimes where concerts are organized for one single person..
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KoCha



Joined: 25 Jan 2002
Posts: 259
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 7:34 am    Post subject: Simulating a club PA in the studio - convolution method Reply with quote

Man!! many thx to you interruptor, with you i don't need to burn lot of CDs to hear it on cheap radio to know if my mix is good.

The club emulation is a really good idea, but in anyway without good monitors the sounds would'nt be real...

In any case many thanks to you interruptor ! good ressource for all dubmasters !

Jah Bless !

KoCha
www.Almighty-Dub.com , Lausanne

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interruptor



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 1103
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2005 8:54 am    Post subject: Simulating a club PA in the studio - convolution method Reply with quote

Hi KoCha,
That's true if the monitors are bad the result cannot be accurate. But if these are the monitors you are used to work with then the emulation can still help you to understand in which direction the sound will be modified in the club. Also you can compare what happens to your tune and what happens to a well known one that is proven already to work fine on soundssystems.

respect
Daniel
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KoCha



Joined: 25 Jan 2002
Posts: 259
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:51 am    Post subject: Simulating a club PA in the studio - convolution method Reply with quote

Yes and matering is a really hard stuff... when your hear tubby's studio records on any cheap radio you will hear drum&bass, but it's hard to find wich frequency can really make the difference... this tool make the test run faster !

Next to my own music, i do recording of dubplate for a soundsystem owned by friends, so it's a real help to know how they will sound in club, prevent spending money when burning duplate (mastering at pro-studio cost lot...)

Jah Bless,

KoCha

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Open Dub Foundation - The WorldWide Dub Meeting
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KoCha



Joined: 25 Jan 2002
Posts: 259
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:00 am    Post subject: Simulating a club PA in the studio - convolution method Reply with quote

Hey Mike Zee,

I just read your idea about "IR Box" (not see it before).

It's a really good idea ! One day i see on behringer website, a box called "Stereo Enhencer" (or somethings like that.. not good in english..), you but a mic in the center of room (club, arena), you play the sound, and the box automatically adjust frequancy and stereo to render it at best... i don't remember price but it was enormous...

But i see a problem in your IR box... if we send music in multi track format, anyone can do a remix using your seperate tracks... or use your basseline... for exemple.. so i don't know if artist want to do that... but why not using actual audio format ? stereo ? like this behringer stuff with extended feature...

KoCha

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attorney



Joined: 17 May 2006
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PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2006 9:04 am    Post subject: Simulating a club PA in the studio - convolution method Reply with quote

Very good site.
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