DUB DUB DISCUSSION BOARD
A place to discuss the production techniques of dub music.
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Analog or digital ?

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    DUB DISCUSSION BOARD Forum Index -> MIXING DESKS
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
mr mc



Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:49 am    Post subject: Analog or digital ? Reply with quote

hi there,

I'm planning to buy a mixer but I still cannot make a decision wether to buy analog or digital mixer. I mostly working on a computer with several hardware synths. I would like to use my computer as a effects box and lately buy some xternal fx.
My idea is to create a kind of loop. I would like to send the signal from my virtual synth and hardware gear to the mixer and use the aux of the mixer to send the signal to the fx in my computer and send it back to the mixer for monitoring and recording. It's possible I guess but I need a good soundcard card with lot of in outs and a bunch of cables. So my idea was to make a digital connection (with a digital mixer)using adat or spdif.
What do you think about that? do you have any advice to giv me? do work mostly on analog or digital mixers?
ps sorry for my poor english.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
interruptor



Joined: 04 Sep 2005
Posts: 1138
Location: Switzerland

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:05 pm    Post subject: Analog or digital ? Reply with quote

be aware of the latency of the computer and soundcard.

i use an usb soundcard which has a total input+output latency of ca. 40ms

this means if you send a signal to the pc, the processed signal will come back with a delay of a t least 40ms. this is audible. especially if you mix the processed signal with the original.

usually you can set the latency of the soundcard in the setup-dialogue. if you set it too low you will hear dropouts/clicks in the processed signal.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Downpressor



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:30 pm    Post subject: Analog or digital ? Reply with quote

Sounds like you have thought out the two basic options:

1) an audio interface with lots of in/outs connected using analog cables to your mixer
2) an audio interface eith ADAT (or other) digital outs connected to a digital mixer.

In either case you need to be sure that your host software (or however you plan to run the FX) can handle the audio routing you want to do.

The question then becomes, what will you record to? If you plan on taking the outs of your mixer to multi track or two track tape (digital or analog) thats fine. If you plan to use the computer as your recorder then you may definitely have some latency issues no matter how much money you spend on hardware.

You might also consider some type of computer based DAW setup, running a sequencer/audio package on the computer. If you want to mix by hardware you can still do that using equipment from Tascam, Mackie or Behhringer. The Tascam & Mackie gear is high quality and widely supported and both manufacturers offer integraded mixers/digital audio interface units. Both also offer devices which just act like mixers to control your software but dont have audio built in. Various expantion options are available for both as well. Both are expensive generally. Behrringer makes cheap gear for digial audio and software control. Their software drivers and overall integration leave alot to be desired. The main point is they are cheap.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DC



Joined: 28 Mar 2001
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 4:37 pm    Post subject: Analog or digital ? Reply with quote

one thing if you produce dub....
don't try to feedback a delay on it's own channel with a digital desk. That doesn't work.

DC
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE



Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:46 pm    Post subject: Analog or digital ? Reply with quote

If you ask me ..heh heh - I'd say for dub analog mixer is the way to go. I'd put it this way: "In respect to dub production - If you trade analog mixer for a digital one: what digital mixer (software platform) gives you is a penny for a dollar comparing to what it takes away from you." Now, I would actually say that analog mixer is the ONLY way to go for dub production, but then of course the 'discussion' would go into what "is dub" ...LOL, and what is dub for you and what is dub for me...blah blah, not just from technical point of view and not even just from technical and artistic point of view, but rather from broad philosophical point :-)
any way.
In case if you basically producing music in computer/software domain, then control surface is your best friend... it does not change a thing technically but simply gives you something to phisically hold on to :-)
Here, I've found a "nice" "guide" page:
http://www.dummies.com/WileyCDA/DummiesArticle/id-1123.html

/respects
Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE
ZDL
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Downpressor



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:09 am    Post subject: Analog or digital ? Reply with quote

Mike, thanks for that article, I'm gonna save that link to show to some folks I know. Obviously you and I stand on different sides of the A/D fence but I respect your stance completely.

The control surface "example" in that article is a Tascam US-428 which is actually a great unit for starting with physical control over software production. It provides a USB audio interface with both mic & line inputs, physical control of software in one unit and is compatible with a wide range of software. The faders are not motorized and they dont feel as good as the ones found in high end units, but they do the job. The integrated transport controls are very handy as well.

Tascam seems to have discontinued it in favor it its baby brother, but the US428 can be found used for quite cheap and drivers are still available for Windows and OSX.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE



Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:27 pm    Post subject: Analog or digital ? Reply with quote

Downpressor, speaking of A/D fence :-)... I just want to add a line here.
To clear up a bit. When I say "I am for Analog" it does not really mean that I'm some how against (or anti-) digital (or software based) dub-production. Well, it's like "yes and no" kind of thing ..heh heh :-)
Without going into philosophical blah-blah ... one thing I need to note here. And this is from my personal experience and according to simply the way I like to produce music (not just dub - any kind of music).
The thing is that I often get into what I call "non-traditional" way of using production equipment and do allot of things more by experimenting and less by following some "tested" and "proven to work well" formular(s). And when it come to dubbing - this gets often really "out of hands" sort of speak. And I guess I get a kick out of doing something on-the-fly which I did not plan to do and often I can't even remember how and what I have done :-) :-) :-) .... and while doing this it's just natural that I often push a gear over its limit. So, as you know, digital domain does not handle well this sort of 'behavior' on one hand and "spitting out" rather UNpleasant surpizes (when you say: "Auch! Grrrrhhh, I screwed up!) . Analog 'system' is more forgiving in general and responds on your "wild move" very often in a mind-blowing way (when you say: "WOW! cool! what have I done? I have no idea :-) ). So at the end I have the sense of much more freedom of action (and I mean REAL-TIME action (unrehearsed!), not pre-programed/pre-designed application/process) when mixing in analog domain (which is of course is not pure analog, but analog mixer based A&D equipment hybrid).

/respects
/Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Downpressor



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2006 9:17 am    Post subject: Analog or digital ? Reply with quote

seen. believe it or not I work realtime in digital with the system I described above. one thing I bet we've both done is to push the fedback level of a delay too far...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mr mc



Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2006 5:29 pm    Post subject: Analog or digital ? Reply with quote

what do you think about Mackie 32:8 mixer? does someone use it?
another thing, dc talked about sending delay on its own channel to create feedback, I know that in ableton live it works well with vst delay plugs, it sounds pretty good. is there a way to do so in cubase?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Downpressor



Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 33

PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 3:52 am    Post subject: Analog or digital ? Reply with quote

mr mc: I think DC wasnt talking about software based plugins, but strictly hardware mixers.

I'd assume that since Cubase also accepts VST plugs you could do the same.

Mackie hardware mixers are OK in my book, but some folks like Chris Randall of audiodamage.com is not fond of em.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
noiseboy



Joined: 16 Mar 2010
Posts: 30
Location: Glastonbury country

PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 3:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Analog or digital ? Reply with quote

DC wrote:
one thing if you produce dub....
don't try to feedback a delay on it's own channel with a digital desk. That doesn't work.DC


Well that rule certainly doesn't apply to all digital boards. I frequently send an effect return channel to itself for both delay & delayed pitch shift. You just have to be a little more careful of input and output levels. Digital is a much less forgiving environment than analogue in terms of operating level in my experience.
You won't be able to get that soft analogue distortion each time round the loop by clipping the channel input amplifier either and using the EQ boosts and cuts to control feedback level is also trickier and less flexible. But I have attempted analogue techniques on Yamaha PM5 and DM2000 with some degree of success.
The main reason to avoid digital boards in my opinion is that they are just too slow to get around for serious dubbing.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
leitmo



Joined: 21 Oct 2009
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi mr mc!

your future setup is exactly mine, samples and sequences are played from Mac and Pc through MOTU 828 MKII with Behringer ADA8000 (total 16 analog outputs) that goes to 16 inputs of my vintage Soundcraft 200SR mixer, i use 4 aux sends to hardware stompboxes and Logic plugins and record live mixes onto stereo track in Logic.

I strongly recommend you this structure, specially for dub. I do not use automation neither Logic nor Cubase, all mixed Live i usually get crazy while organizing tracks and Fx but is very comforting when i finish a live mix.

Go analog man!

Hope it helps!

_________________
life was easier with tapes
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tradesman



Joined: 07 May 2011
Posts: 29
Location: leeds , west yorkshire, UK!

PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ez all iv just been searching for information on this subject im really new to it. i use logic pro and do everything in the box at the moment but i want to be able to do 'live' mixes and incorporate analog fx into it . could any one giv me a breakdown of the gear i actually need to gaet ??? cheers
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    DUB DISCUSSION BOARD Forum Index -> MIXING DESKS All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group