The Dub Discussion Board: Analog or digital ?

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mr mc

Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 11:49 am:

hi there,

I'm planning to buy a mixer but I still cannot make a decision wether to buy analog or digital mixer. I mostly working on a computer with several hardware synths. I would like to use my computer as a effects box and lately buy some xternal fx.
My idea is to create a kind of loop. I would like to send the signal from my virtual synth and hardware gear to the mixer and use the aux of the mixer to send the signal to the fx in my computer and send it back to the mixer for monitoring and recording. It's possible I guess but I need a good soundcard card with lot of in outs and a bunch of cables. So my idea was to make a digital connection (with a digital mixer)using adat or spdif.
What do you think about that? do you have any advice to giv me? do work mostly on analog or digital mixers?
ps sorry for my poor english.

interruptor

Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 03:05 pm:

be aware of the latency of the computer and soundcard.

i use an usb soundcard which has a total input+output latency of ca. 40ms

this means if you send a signal to the pc, the processed signal will come back with a delay of a t least 40ms. this is audible. especially if you mix the processed signal with the original.

usually you can set the latency of the soundcard in the setup-dialogue. if you set it too low you will hear dropouts/clicks in the processed signal.

Downpressor

Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 03:30 pm:

Sounds like you have thought out the two basic options:

1) an audio interface with lots of in/outs connected using analog cables to your mixer
2) an audio interface eith ADAT (or other) digital outs connected to a digital mixer.

In either case you need to be sure that your host software (or however you plan to run the FX) can handle the audio routing you want to do.

The question then becomes, what will you record to? If you plan on taking the outs of your mixer to multi track or two track tape (digital or analog) thats fine. If you plan to use the computer as your recorder then you may definitely have some latency issues no matter how much money you spend on hardware.

You might also consider some type of computer based DAW setup, running a sequencer/audio package on the computer. If you want to mix by hardware you can still do that using equipment from Tascam, Mackie or Behhringer. The Tascam & Mackie gear is high quality and widely supported and both manufacturers offer integraded mixers/digital audio interface units. Both also offer devices which just act like mixers to control your software but dont have audio built in. Various expantion options are available for both as well. Both are expensive generally. Behrringer makes cheap gear for digial audio and software control. Their software drivers and overall integration leave alot to be desired. The main point is they are cheap.

Posted on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 04:37 pm:

one thing if you produce dub....
don't try to feedback a delay on it's own channel with a digital desk. That doesn't work.

DC

Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE

Posted on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 09:46 pm:

If you ask me ..heh heh - I'd say for dub analog mixer is the way to go. I'd put it this way: "In respect to dub production - If you trade analog mixer for a digital one: what digital mixer (software platform) gives you is a penny for a dollar comparing to what it takes away from you." Now, I would actually say that analog mixer is the ONLY way to go for dub production, but then of course the 'discussion' would go into what "is dub" ...LOL, and what is dub for you and what is dub for me...blah blah, not just from technical point of view and not even just from technical and artistic point of view, but rather from broad philosophical point :-)

any way.
In case if you basically producing music in computer/software domain, then control surface is your best friend... it does not change a thing technically but simply gives you something to phisically hold on to :-)

Here, I've found a "nice" "guide" page:
http://www.dummies.com/WileyCDA/DummiesArticle/id-1123.html

/respects
Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE
ZDL

Downpressor

Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 09:09 am:

Mike, thanks for that article, I'm gonna save that link to show to some folks I know. Obviously you and I stand on different sides of the A/D fence but I respect your stance completely.

The control surface "example" in that article is a Tascam US-428 which is actually a great unit for starting with physical control over software production. It provides a USB audio interface with both mic & line inputs, physical control of software in one unit and is compatible with a wide range of software. The faders are not motorized and they dont feel as good as the ones found in high end units, but they do the job. The integrated transport controls are very handy as well.

Tascam seems to have discontinued it in favor it its baby brother, but the US428 can be found used for quite cheap and drivers are still available for Windows and OSX.

Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE

Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 10:27 pm:

Downpressor, speaking of A/D fence :-)

... I just want to add a line here.
To clear up a bit. When I say "I am for Analog" it does not really mean that I'm some how against (or anti-) digital (or software based) dub-production. Well, it's like "yes and no" kind of thing ..heh heh :-)

Without going into philosophical blah-blah ... one thing I need to note here. And this is from my personal experience and according to simply the way I like to produce music (not just dub - any kind of music).
The thing is that I often get into what I call "non-traditional" way of using production equipment and do allot of things more by experimenting and less by following some "tested" and "proven to work well" formular(s). And when it come to dubbing - this gets often really "out of hands" sort of speak. And I guess I get a kick out of doing something on-the-fly which I did not plan to do and often I can't even remember how and what I have done :-)

.... and while doing this it's just natural that I often push a gear over its limit. So, as you know, digital domain does not handle well this sort of 'behavior' on one hand and "spitting out" rather UNpleasant surpizes (when you say: "Auch! Grrrrhhh, I screwed up!) . Analog 'system' is more forgiving in general and responds on your "wild move" very often in a mind-blowing way (when you say: "WOW! cool! what have I done? I have no idea :-)

). So at the end I have the sense of much more freedom of action (and I mean REAL-TIME action (unrehearsed!), not pre-programed/pre-designed application/process) when mixing in analog domain (which is of course is not pure analog, but analog mixer based A&D equipment hybrid).

/respects
/Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE

Downpressor

Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 09:17 am:

seen. believe it or not I work realtime in digital with the system I described above. one thing I bet we've both done is to push the fedback level of a delay too far...

mr mc

Posted on Monday, February 27, 2006 - 05:29 pm:

what do you think about Mackie 32:8 mixer? does someone use it?
another thing, dc talked about sending delay on its own channel to create feedback, I know that in ableton live it works well with vst delay plugs, it sounds pretty good. is there a way to do so in cubase?

Downpressor

Posted on Tuesday, February 28, 2006 - 03:52 am:

mr mc: I think DC wasnt talking about software based plugins, but strictly hardware mixers.

I'd assume that since Cubase also accepts VST plugs you could do the same.

Mackie hardware mixers are OK in my book, but some folks like Chris Randall of audiodamage.com is not fond of em.

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