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kris
Posted on Sunday, August 18, 2002 - 04:37 pm:   

where can i find a spring reverb directx or vst plugin
 

Mike Zee
Posted on Sunday, August 18, 2002 - 09:49 pm:   

I never heard of one ...:)..., I mean - :(,
heh heh, well, either way...
The thing is that software developers were (or are) trying to create something what DOES NOT! sound like spring reverb, but rather something CLEAN, which they call 'more natural' ...I guess from 'computer-programmer mind's point of view the taste of pure sugar from a can is more natural than taste of wild grape... heh, poetically speaking ... ;)

I've found this tipical review-quote on this plugin review page:
"The Ultrafunk reverb is one of the cleanest, smoothest, and most spacious reverb plug-ins I've used yet. None of that twanginess that makes it sound like a spring reverb (although that is cool at times). It's really really smooth and spacious, lots of control over the timbre, reflections, and frequencies of the reverb"
*****
I think from 'market point of view' it maybe a good idea for some software company to develop a special plug-in pack, calling it something like "Vintage Dirt", or "Dirty Pack" ... which would be a sort of collection of modeling of sounds of variety of vintage effect-processors, you know, similar to 'vynil-pack', where you can set amount of 'scretches, noise and RPM ..heh heh,
so in "Dirty Pack", you would be able to set "parameters" like: length of the spring, amount of dust inside the tank, amount of rust on electrical connectors etc etc :), I also wish to have there "kik the amp-cab with your foot"-BUTTON, it must be a real time-effect :)

respects,
/Mike Zee
ZEE DUB LAB
 

interruptor
Posted on Monday, August 19, 2002 - 10:28 am:   

indeed.. i also searched the net for spring reverb plug-ins some time ago and only came accross the same paragraph mike has cited above in green color!

it seems that nowaday's market for vintage/spring reverbs is mostly driven by guitar players and these guys want a real hardware box they can connect in between guitar and amp..

as i mentioned in an earlyer post there are plug-ins by different manufacturers based on the convolution method which can be used to simulate any real room or reverb effect box. These need a lot of computing power so they are not suited for real time use (unless you have a really super fast computer). "acoustic mirror" is one of these plug-ins. It is available together with sound forge and also includes some spring reverb presets. another option would be samplitude's "room simulator".
 

kris
Posted on Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 02:37 am:   

yeah i found the same thing.
it would be classic if you could get a tubby kick the amp plugin

cheers for the tips
kris
 

interruptor
Posted on Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 09:00 am:   

if you are just after the "tubby kick the amp" sound you could also kick a guitar amp with spring reverb yourself and take some samples. in my opinion for this thundering noise it's not so important to get the EXACT same sound to achieve the same feel as it is with reverb applied to drum hits.
 

Mike Zee
Posted on Tuesday, August 20, 2002 - 03:42 pm:   

Daniel said:
"if you are after "tobby kick the amp" sound - you can kick the amp yourself."

heh heh heh - LOL :) :) :)

No-way, man, it'gotta be Tobby's foot - no other way .... ;)

Daniel, you know - it's just sort of very funny thing .. you know, well, I'm just jokin' - hah hah

I think Tobby could produce and release sample-CD, full of Tobby-Kicking The Amp sounds/samples, so producers know thgen, that this is not just somebody's kicks... but they are True-Tobby's :) :)

later,
respects

/Mike Zee
 

Eric Vasconcellos
Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 06:09 pm:   

Mike,

I think he is referring to "Tubby's" not "Tobby's" as in King Tubby, THE founder of dub....Jamaican Mastermind unfortunately gunned down in front of his home in 1989....

One Love
Eric V
 

Mike Zee
Posted on Saturday, November 16, 2002 - 08:50 pm:   

Eric, thanx so much for da'education.

that's a love'ting... you know....
you say kick - I say kik

you say ridm or rridim or riddim - i say rhythm

you say Tubby , I say Tobby :)

we all can get sensetive over meaningless shit for some reason...
**********
whould you be so kind to clear up then: is it Robby, or Robie, or Robbie..., but no , no Rubby... or is it? , please educate my bone-head...
yeah, and who is Robbie?
******
but of course, when it comes to down to talking about "Kings", then we MUST respect da'spelling more than our misserable lifes... or shall we care at all?

/respects
/M Zee, aka Dr. Zee
 

Ben Nagari
Posted on Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 10:29 am:   

I thought you might be interested in the link, I haven't tried it yet but the PSP84 plugin is advertised as being able to do 'spring reverb'

link

Ben
 

interruptor
Posted on Wednesday, February 12, 2003 - 11:48 am:   

here are two more plugins that feature spring reverb:

IK Multimedia - Amplitube

TC Works - native performance verb (MAC only)
 

interruptor
Posted on Thursday, February 13, 2003 - 01:06 am:   

I just tried out the spring reverb simulation in the PSP 84 and the Amplitube:

Amplitube: Spring reverb emulation is hardly recognizable as such. It is not much more than a short digital delay with a high feedback level.

PSP 84: Somewhat better. It reminds of a spring reverb for most input signals. But it does not emulate the typical response of a spring reverb to a bass drum: This "puiprrrr" sound that can be heard on many vintage dubs, when the rim shot plus bass drum of a one drop beat hit the reverb unit.

It seems we have to wait some more until somebody seriously attemps to emulate a spring reverb..
 

Mike Zee
Posted on Thursday, February 13, 2003 - 02:19 pm:   

Daniel, it's not gonna happen :( ... here's what I mean: nobody really going to go deeply into "analyzis" of what exactly happenning with electrical signals when passing through the spring and try to "digitize" the whole process. Some programmers may simply try to achive a sound-throuh effect when applied on some instruments. And the thing is: different sounds (signals) getting different effect actually when being sent through actual physical spring. I mean, another words, if you play guitar through the spring it'll will get one "kind" of treatment, if you send a sharp drum-kik with rim - it'll shake the spring differently and thus the actuall effect (or what actually happens with the spring) is not the same as when you play guitar or organ etc....
I am having trouble to explain what I mean, but the buttom line is: the real spring reverb's effect also depends on characteristics of the input sounds/signals.
So, if you can follow what I'm saying here ..heh heh :), is not a "ONE" effect processor, but many effect-processors in one, depending on what you send through. I think it would be possible to program some specific sets of digital effects, but it would not be "spring reverb simulation", but set of simulations, like:
clean guitar spring reverb simulation
distorted guitar spring reverb simulation
organ spring reverb simulation
etc...
now, do you think that somebody would seat-down programming kik/rim shot spring reverb simulation??? heh heh , kind of hard to imagine, unless the programmer actually is a dub-head himself or get the idea to create something like "Ghosts of Kingston - special plugIn pack", hah hah ;) :)

/respects
/Mike Zee
 

interruptor
Posted on Thursday, February 13, 2003 - 05:57 pm:   

you're probably right mike - maybe there will never be enough commercial potential for developping such a plugin. but i think it wouldn't be harder to do than other existing emulations like tube overdrive, tape saturation, speaker simulation, hammond organ, rhodes piano, .. this technology is still young and the market is growing fast so i wouldn't be surprised if someday somebody came up with a dedicated spring reverb plug-in.
meanwhile check out http://www.kvr-vst.com for a great overview of commercial and free vst-plugins.

peace
daniel
 

munky lee
Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 08:56 am:   

I don't really agree with you mike.
thoses kinds of effects are really important for us, they are a kind of magic. but we maybe consider them more important than they really are.

what they do is only modulate an electric signal, but in a way we really love. but technically, it is only electricity.

what is impossible, for exemple, is to recreate a natural reverb of a church or something like that.
but a spring reverb or a tape echo is really more simple for an algorythmheader!!!

mat
 

Rootzilla
Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 09:58 am:   

Yes I,

Actually, Munky, you're only half right: the spring reverb creates (as I'm sure you know) the effect by the vibration of a spring. So it's not jus' electricity, it's also the _physics_ of the actual spring. And to model the way a piece of metal reacts to different amounts of energy at different frequencies would be quite complex, I guess...

Like Mike said, if ya feed your kick and you rimshot in the 'verb at the same time, the massive amount of energy the low-freq kick signal feeds into the spring is going to affect how the rimshot is modulated by the spring as well. So the problem would be simulating that interaction and crosstalk.

Jus' my two cents...

One Love,

Rootz
 

SachaMassaGonna
Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 11:31 am:   

...yes I...
...love the deep 'psychics of Dub'...

...i think as the programming of plugins are at the moment it is quite primitive actually in comparison to tha spontaneous workings of reaction and response of 'real' frequency wave patterns that we find in 'natural' atmosphere acoustics and the innerworkings of the spring reverb...Jah makes things more 'advanced' in the first creation, seen?...and we Jah children strive for that and eventually merge again into that first creation through 'our' creations...

...i do see some interesting things in store for us in the future when virtual reality simulation will be more indepthly incorporated with more intensity to the programming of plugins...what i mean is the type of research effort that is going into making real-life video games (ie. the random real-life simulation of explosions in games based on laws of probability and chance in relation to physics equations etc.) will also be used in audio plugins...

...the spring itself must be made 'visual' and concrete digitally and all the movements must be computed and programmed...then what i think you will find is stating what instruments are being used and computing of how the spring would move virtually would be processed and the audio signal would be computed accordingly...even the natural atmophere has an effect ie. moist, humid, cold...as you know Jamaica is hot and humid somethymes...this has an effect on the equipment...especially in the black ark recordings...you can almost feel the spring shaking the sweat from its metalic lock...

...it is all electric my, friend...our bodies hold electric currents...it may not be as 'dense' and 'warm' as the analogue spring reverb, but there will sure be some interesting sounds coming i tell you...the plugins are all in a primitive stage as i see it now in mass availability...

...but i think physics is the way forward to achieve 'real' emulation of natural acoustics...the key is understanding the subtle workings of mass, force and mirroring the denser sound waves of analogue processors...
...also, the programmers must add spiritual dimensions...like saying mantras as they programme...and incorporating mandalas in the encoding process...

yea, so it won't be the same, but it will be fascinating nonetheless...future of studios is gonna be like a Holodek...

...astrally yours...
 

munky lee
Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 01:57 pm:   

Rootzilla said :
"the effect by the vibration of a spring. So it's not jus' electricity, it's also the _physics_ of the actual spring. And to model the way a piece of metal reacts to different amounts of energy at different frequencies would be quite complex, I guess...
Like Mike said, if ya feed your kick and you rimshot in the 'verb at the same time, the massive amount of energy the low-freq kick signal feeds into the spring is going to affect how the rimshot is modulated by the spring as well. So the problem would be simulating that interaction and crosstalk. "

well, this is the programmator job!
like any other plug-in, there is not only the lectricity problem, but so many more, even physical problems.
some virtual instruments emulated like pro52, take in consideration the changing of reaction of the oscillators with external temperature!

have you heard vstinstruments like the pro53, the B4 in real studio monitors?
have you heard plug-ins like the antares mic modeler? guitar amp simulators like the amplitube?

now today, wa are able to do those kind of things, and what about in 10 years? and only in ONE year? we don't know, but I'm already excited to test it!!!

yes, I love technology!!! and I love how roots reggae sounds by the hands of perry or tubby!!! I love the digital sound of the sleng teng (it was very cheap, but only 20 years ago!!!)
I love to try anything new, we have to always go forward, to always think positive!!!
 

interruptor
Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 02:06 pm:   

well said munky :-)
 

Rootzilla
Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 04:07 pm:   

Yes I,

Aww, why yuh fe galang so...

I was not saying it's not possible to do an digital approximation of the response of spring reverb today. I think it's entirely possible, and even possible to do it very well. Well enough that most people (myself included) won't be able to tell the difference. Or at least so that the difference is so small that you won't notice it in the context of a mix.

All I was saying was that the way those old effects treat the sound, it is not only the matter of electricity, and thus it is more difficult to model. And yes, if you want to produce all of your music in digital environment, (and I think this is entirely viable way of making music, and has produced some beautiful results, just not my cup of tea) I agree, it's the programmer's job to make that modelling possible.

One question remains, however. And that is, if you're producing entirely in the digital medium, employing totally different methods in creation than the pioneers, why should you try and recreate the sounds they were using? This is relevant to the goin' forward part you mentioned, true? Should we try and respec the esthetic of the pioneers, or should we try to come up with entirely different rules for the game? Of course, one reason is that it is more difficult to abuse the digital medium, producing sounds by accident (jus' try kickin' an algorithm!:)). But it believe all a these ting, they can and should coexist and help us mek it more exiting an' more powerful...

One Love,

Rootz
 

Mike Zee
Posted on Friday, February 14, 2003 - 05:31 pm:   

guys, what if I say this???:

Using an old real sring reverb in your production isn't a 'step back', isn't negative, isn't regressive - it's just using an old spring reverb in your studio-production today :)

and on the other hand:
using a new computer program trying to get (or even actually getting) the effect of an old real real spring reverb isn't really a progressive , isn't really futuristic or "positive" - it's just not using a real spring reverb in your studio production.

heh heh, what the heck am I talking here ?
I am trying to make a point, that it's is not about new/progressive/futuristic vs old/retro/conservative. And it's sounds like we are getting into that sort of "confrontation" , you know what I mean.
Let's say, if you really feel/think that the effect of spring reverb in dub is way overrated - this is fine. Well, you don't need it at all, maybe - there are other creative ways.
But if you want that effect - why not to just have it as real? You are still in 2003, unless you may think that everything which isn't digitized is RETRO and thus non-progressive :)

There's one thing I will never agree with thou : when people say : "Ah, it's all just electricity" - or similar. Programmers often say: "Ah, it's all just bunch of "zerros" and "ones". Yeah , right...

I've heard allots of digital synth instuments (including software-based) - and yeah - there are allots of amazing sounds from sounds which we used to know throgh never heard before. But I never heard any real organ comming from any digital synth - well, I can tell the difference. Same with any other instrument and effect. 24bit Cathedral Reverb from Lexicon is a real cool effect, but it is not what you hear in Cathedral - not even close - I can hear the difference, unless you never 've been in The Cathedral.
Btw, if you never heard a real good Choir in a large Cathedral Live - do yourself a good service - go and listen once, may change your views on everything in regard to sound and music production ... :), well, I'm not being really serious.
Not far from my house - there's a small rever, and there's a place where it makes a sharp turn - and it gets fast and noizy there - every time I pass that place - I think - I gotta get couple mics and record this magic sound. Then I think: nah - it is never going to sound like that on recording anyway, - (just electricity can't handle it...). I still may try some day....

./respects,

/Mike Zee
 

SachaMassaGonna
Posted on Saturday, February 15, 2003 - 10:29 am:   

...the need to 'capture' is such a voyeuristic tendancy in man...hardcore photographers seem to be the most brave carrying cameras 24-7...it is about evoking the ambiance/atmosphere of the moment, passing on knowledge of an event for future generations and for others to experience their own experience...it is the same with recording a live jam session...it never sounds like it does in the room...but does that mean it shouldn't recorded?...somethymes...somethymes magic cannot be recorded and must stay free in the unknowable spontaneous realm...
...i agree though with you point about the 'old vs new scenario' because in the bigger picture they are connected and not entirely seperate phenomenon...for instance the binary codes can be seen to be present in all matter (ie. DNA)...liking a particular sound depends on your predilections...some will say they like digital simulation of organs, effects etc. better because they feel they can control even more subtle nuiances in frequencies...but the task of an artist is to find their own medium and genre...there will always be 'traditionists' and they try to evoke what they feel is 'authentic' and there will be those that feel that the orginal artform is in an ongoing transformation forever in dynamic fusion with other styles and influences...i mean DUB musik was so advanced as it was and so free too...clips of cows mooing, sirens, whistles, cut ins of incomplete verses, it is such a futuristic artform incorporating everything in the environment...
...we have no choice but to move on because the genre itself forces us to...

...Om shanti, shanti, shanti...
...with peace in the heart, mind and soul...
...let us bring peace to earth between humans...
 

Rootzilla
Posted on Saturday, February 15, 2003 - 12:45 pm:   

Yes I,

I hope we won't need to have any confrontation... Ca' that lead to iration...

I wasn't really makin' any statement for or against the use of spring reverb - a real one or a digital simulation - I was just raising sum questions, and I didn't mean to make it sound like I know the answers. The reason I brought these questions up is that I ponder them quite often, bein' really in love wit that old-time sound, and tryin' to figure out where is the right balance between 'authentic' and 'derivative'. I don't know. I don't claim to know. I'm just wondering.

I don't know if this is relevant to anything, but Sacha mentionin' photography brought it to my mind... A year ago I was in Ghana, and we made a trip to some caves, with a guide. All the way, the scenenry was really beautiful and the guide was askin' me why am I not takin' any pictures of it. And my answer to him was that god made the scenery, but man made the camera. And I didn't feel that scenery is going to translate, if I try to capture it on the film. Also, you could peep what I have said about live recording in the thread about electronic dub, that's also somehow relevant...

Mike, I like the way you put it:

"using a new computer program trying to get (or even actually getting) the effect of an old real real spring reverb ... it's just not using a real spring reverb in your studio production."

On the other hand, it's not negative either, and if you feel it gets the job done, fine. That's ultimately what matters. And of course, not all of us have the choice all the time. And I think it's also good to remember that we don't need all the options, I think Lee Perry had a 8-tracker towards the end of Black Ark, but he still used the old 4-track more, 'cuz he liked that better. So, whatever does it _for you_, is what you should be using.

One Love,

Rootz
 

Mike Zee
Posted on Saturday, February 15, 2003 - 07:51 pm:   

I hope we won't need to have any confrontation...

Yeah, i mean - NO! :) heh heh
I mean, I've used the word 'confrontation', just to point out, that (in my openion) subject/discussion about digital effects (or digital sound modeling) does not need to becom a sort of discussion "old (retro) vs new (modern, progressive, futuristic)"
And if I happened to believe that digital modeling of a spring reverb will never happen - it does not mean I am speaking against technology. I am just speaking from paractical point. I guess it is technically possible to 'cpmpletely' digitize a 'spring reverb unit', but, man, it is not going to be a cheap simple project at all, and thus it does not look possible (cos' who's gonna pay for it? NASA? - I kind of don't think so ...). If a spring reverb plug-in will be sold for $500 - who is goin to buy it? You can get a real one for 20-50 bucks :)
If to go into futuristic fantasy, my guess would be, that digital(software based) sound-processors and sound-synthesizers will be not as much as ready to use models of some specific Real-Analog-World units, gear or situation (space, like room, hall, basement, cathedral etc...), but it maybe a some creation-tool(s) software, which will let user to actually create or construct the "what-ever it may be in user's mind"... another words, imagine a software-tool which is a lab for creation of vary analog-world objects, electrical devices, ambients etc... And again, the whole exitement about it is not that you can duplicate something what you can have as a real thing at your studio, but rather something which does not exist nor can exist... well, I know I am a bit off the line here..., but you've got the point ;)

To add up to the point of 'capturing a moments' on film or audio-tape :)
I was trying to do both. Well, not much, but mostly as hobby and as a part of some audio-production. What I've noticed is: that it never works as expected while you are on the "hunt". Another words, let's say when you are out there with photo-camera, and you see/find an absolute visual beauty - and when you try to catch it - nop - it comes out something totally un-expected - dull, flat, boring, emty. And on the other hand, when you try to take a sort of different perspective when looking at things, objects etc... and you make shots of something which may look totally common, but at "right angle, right target, light and cut-off" it turns out to be an absolute impressive and even powerful piece of art.
The same thing with sounds. My favorite example is a sound of summer-night forest with millions of insects and other living beings choral - this is a one kind of sound you can only experience in reality. If you try to capture it - you'll get a some thin and anoying noise, even if you use top equipment. On the other hands, you can use a very lo-fi simple recordings (sounds, scratches, noises or what ever) and in studio to create a very powerful textures, just by using a chain of simple effects and re-recordings.

************
ok, hah, can we blah about this stuff forever or what...? :)
btw, THANK YOU everybody for taking time speaking out here, it sure a very interesting read and to know what you think/feel....

best regards,
/respects
/mz
 

KoCha
Posted on Sunday, February 16, 2003 - 08:28 pm:   

Do what you love with what you can have for $$$ in this babylon world..
If can't get a things.. try to emulate it....

But if emulation is more expensive than the real things ?

I think it's that for spring reverb...

Just my mind all keep good vibes.

See you.

KoCha
www.Almighty-Dub.com
 

interruptor
Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 02:04 pm:   

i found a discussion by people trying to emulate a spring reverb as a plug-in.
authentic sounding spring reverb plug-ins might be closer than we thought.. ;-)
 

Mike Zee
Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 05:09 pm:   

wow, Daniel, I was skimmin' quickly through topic(s) ... really interesting chating there :) I gotta read later more with more attention.

You know what's going through my mind first? It is , that 'spring reverb' isn't really a reverb in a sense what 'Reverberation' is. Spring is an electro-mechanical device which is a one of a kind thing, and so when trying to model it through DSP - you have to think totally about something different, which has nothing to do with 'Reverberation'.... see what I mean? ;)

/later,
/MZ aka DrZEE
 

HM
Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 05:44 pm:   

I heard that the new reaktor/session line got
a spring-reverb included,... it is told to be
real nice from people at: www.kvr-vst.com
(one of the forums, I mail from library and
can´t link up right now) ,.. anyways reaktor
is discontinued for me as challenge-response
is suddenly implimented from 4.0, i hate it

HM
 

interruptor
Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 11:55 pm:   

yes HM, this is the page at kvr-vst with the user comments on the spring plugin in reaktor session.
and here is
native instrument's own descriptionof the effect (see bottom of page).

it would be interesting to know how this thing sounds when a basskick is sent through it!
 

Mike Zee
Posted on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 03:09 am:   

here, just in case, if somebody here is reading all this stuff but feel like wish to get a basic ideas about 'Sound Waves physics', i've found a little "lesson": Sound Waves and Music, be sure to look at lesson-3 :)
again to my point, you see, spring reverb isn't really a device which 'physicly' modeling 'Reverberation'. What spring does to the 'wave' isn't what Reverberation does to 'sound wave' in any specific envirnment at all!
Spring transforms (or say shapes) the wave in its own specific way. Now, add here the fact that physical air wave IS the sound and Reverberation does "treat" the sound within a specific environment the 'same way' (not really, but sort of :)), while metal spring DOES NOT treat different waves (signals) the same way ( characteristics of The INPUT shpe the spring's action (and thus shpe the treatment or The INPUT), so the output (result) depnds on and is specific only for this specific INPUT. Another words, spring reverb is a INPUT-"driven" processor...heh heh :). So you can not really create a one set of 'commands' (application/program) which will work 'universally-correct' for any signal/sound/sample(digital wave) the same way as phical spring works.
Well, I guess, in theory, it is possible to program the "shaping" of "application's parameters" depending on (in respond to) characteristics of INPUT wave. IT IS a real hard job thou ...., cos' you are not just programming the "treatment data recalculation" but also have to figure out and program how to dynamically adjust "treatment parameters" based on haracteristics-data of the incoming signal. If you think about how complex sounds are in dynamics - so there you have it - your hair ar sending up, and I'd say : "Happy Programming!" heh heh :)
BTW, it is the same for Reverberation, but we don't really think about it. I mean , when you apply some great hi-resolution DSP reverb (let's say 'large room') on different kinds of sounds, and you get some nice sounding "roomy" result - you just happy. But you don't think, that in real world in the same room you would not get the same Reverberation result for the same set of different sounds, because in real room different sound waves will also act and be treated differently, not as it happens "within" 'the application'.

hope I make any sense here ...:)

/Mike Zee, aka DrZEE
 

dharma one
Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 02:20 pm:   

was looking into this a few months ago, the best one at the moment is the one which comes with amplitube vst. i think there is a degree of physical modeling to it.. but really there is so much nonlinearity happening in a spring reverb that you are MUCH better off using a real one
 

yvo2000
Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 03:56 pm:   

By the time Tubby, Perry and the others were dubbing music, as far as i know (but i'm not a specialist) they were usin' stuff they could find in Jamaica by their time.

So am I when i look for a spring reverb plug in. The real one may be cool as long as you can find it in your local secondhand store, but as i m living in the countryside i never have found anything like that in my own town. On the opposite side, it is so easy for me to download a plug-in on the web... of course it won't be exactly the same thing as the real one but it will sound good enough to make i'n'i musically pleasure...

For me, as i dont earn money by doing music, the most important thing when i do dub is the creativity. I m not a professional but a user with experience. In my big enough home studio of mine i record Reason arrangement with some live performence for a good dub music that i m proud of... I personnaly think that the new Reason Advanced-Reverb Unit with his spring reverb preset is good enough.

Thanks for this interresting website...
 

darkflame23
Posted on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 12:32 pm:   

i haven't found ANY vst reverbs which come anywhere close to emulating a real spring reverb :(

however, the freeware psp pianoverb can sometimes sound suitably BOINGY:

http://www.pspaudioware.com/
 

Mike Zee
Posted on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 02:52 pm:   

darkflame23 ,
thanks for the link :) ... I've got it and tested on some drum-loops. Hah! this is actually really good extra plug...sounds great for a freeware, btw.
Well, I could not get any 'real-spring' like effect...however, you are right, with some settings the result is a VERY useful for dubbing. Really cool on snare...

respects,
/Mike Zee aka DrZEE
 

HM
Posted on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 02:59 pm:   

Pianoverb can do things a real spring
can´t,...... like having a very clear
and tweakable tonal resonance,.......
CPU hog though, P4-bug is still in it,
even my celeron 600@950 it drains just
being present one time, anyway its cool

HM
 

justiceandstrength
Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 06:47 am:   

There is a free convolving reverb plug in called 'SIR' for PC which samples reverb. I am sure that a spring reverb (impulse) will be sampled soon or is available somewhere - there are also other commercial convolving reverbs. For dub tape delay and spring reverb this is looking v.interesting.

One love
 

Mike Zee
Posted on Tuesday, November 11, 2003 - 08:02 am:   

I think Justice... is talking about this: SIR, check FQA there for general idea.
Loks like it maybe hard to use. I can't tell, 'cos I don't use vst.
Again, I may be very wrong here, but my thought is: the biggest problem with spring is that it does not do the same "thing" to different imput signals. So I gues, in theory, it is possible to apply the same idea as SIR, by sampling original signal, then 'through spring signal', than "filter out" original and get "information" and then apply what ever process, based on this "information"..... but it will not do the same as real spring, when you you apply the resulting process on different input signal, then the one which you used as 'sample'....

another words, spring 'treats' guitar in one way , but kik+rimshot - in totally different way

well, I am going in 'circle' here ...i gues...he heh :)

/respects,
/Mike Zee aka Dr. Zee
 

interruptor
Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 04:35 pm:   

PSP have recently released their EasyVerb featuring a spring reverb algorithm. Has anybody tried the demo yet?

PSP Audioware Site

price is $100
 

Mike Zee
Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 06:29 pm:   

Daniel, I've installed demo version DX, and did quick try. Well, first of all I have to say that PSP makes really good plugs for what ever production use, sounding good, interface is nice, good presets etc. EasyVerb has ton of great presets.
As for spring, I don't know. There are few presets there (typical, basic, short, long, guitar amp and fender spring(s)). Kinda ok, but again, I would not compare it with real spring, not to mention that when using real spring for dubbing the producer has the whole different approach on techniques than when 'creating' dubs on computer and thus the results are hard to compare, really comparing apples and oranges :)
OK, I've made a short mp3 file just to get some idea. I had to really go around the demo limitation, which inserts noise on process, so I had to open SForge and then also open another SForge app (screenblast), which would record soundcards mix output, so I could record the 'preview/result'... kinda pain in tha'*ss to do...
So in this mp3 file: short organ chord(skank like), following by two EasyVerb spring presets, then I have short mix-loop, following by cuts/hits from the loop unprocessed and following by couple samples of processed throuch different spring-settings of the PlugIn (Loop-CutFrom Loop Dry-CutFromLoop Processed)...
Just check it out, judge for yourself.
Here's link: http://www.mzentertainment.com/music/EasyVerbDemo.mp3
Guys, if you want to check this demo - download it now (it's about 1MB 128kbps stereo mp3). I will not keep this file on the server for long, maybe for couple of days.

Well, $100??? hmmmm, not so cheap. But then again, the plug is greate. To buy it just for this spring-immitation? ??? I would not. If you have 100bux to just through away, then sure go for it.

/respects,
/Mike Zee aka Dr. ZEE
ZEE DUB LAB
 

interruptor
Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 01:20 pm:   

hey mike, thanks for taking the time! i'll listen to it tonight.
 

Mike Zee
Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2003 - 05:55 pm:   

Daniel, I think this plug gets interesting rsult on bass-like hits... I would not say it's like real spring, but it gets nice vibe... You can hear it on the very last sample in the mp3, also good verb for snare hits...
Well, again, the whole deal is to be able to use it in real time and experimenting where to apply it within the jungle-of-the-mix ;)
********
One note: for guys who are advanced in computer-based production and have appropriate software. You actually can use limited demo version for processing short loops/samples/hits. To do this you need to have two applications oppened/running. It is possible in windows XP for sure, I don't know about w95/98/2000 ????
The idea is: open sample file in one audio editing program which supports DX or VST plugs. Select the part you wish to process, then go to your DX list, select EasyVerb. Then you have preview button. When you calick preview you hear processed output. The noise is being inserted every somewhat sec.... What you need to do id to open enother audio application which can record audio. (I had Sounforge 4.5 for processing and ScreenBlast SoundForge running the same time to record output). To make sure that you can record 'the system mix output' you need to double click the speaker on the bottom of your computer screen (in the task bar) - it will open your 'Master Volume' window, then click Options/Properties in menue, there select 'recording', then you see all available 'sources' list...select them all and click OK, now you see all sources as select/and level sliders "Recording Control". Now make sure that you select only "Stereo Mix" and all other are non-selected. Now set record level (not very hi). Keep this window open, because you may need to adjust this record level to avoid clipping.
Now go to you recording application (second audio editing application). Start "NewFile", click "Record", before you actually start recording you need to set record level in you "Record Control". Start Recording....
So this way in general you can record what ever is playing on you computer, including PlugIn preview etc....
Again, in demo-version the noise is being applied periodicly, but you can keep recording untill you capture clean sound. Stop recording. Now select the prtion of clean processed sound and copy it. Start "New", paste.... you've got the processed sound.

Well... is it usefull???? good question...
Not useful as easy way or real time plug in, but advanced users can make processed samples this way for later construction of their productions ....

Computer-based music-making is pretty complicated to begin with.... well, I'm not talking about easy-toy-remixing :)

later,
/Mike Zee aka Dr. ZEE
 

interruptor
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 12:29 am:   

just listened to your demo mike. the reverb is rather disappointing. does not sound like a spring to me.
the free dub box plug-in was closer to what i think a spring must sound like.
ok.. the wait for the real spring plug-in is not over yet, maybe one day..
 

Mike Zee
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 01:40 am:   

Daniel, as i've said..to me it's 'apple and orange'.... even if orange may sort of look like (sound like :)) an apple it will never can come close...
Also to make a real compare analizis you need to send exactly the same sample through real long spring reverb unit , then through this plug in - and hear the difference...

The plug in is pretty good thou for what it is...allots of good reverbs, and interface is nice and easy to use...

later,
/M ZEE aka Dr ZEE
 

interruptor
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 02:09 am:   

i like oranges more, so i'll continue eating real oranges until virtual oranges are as good as real ones..
 

Mike Zee
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 02:21 am:   

You need virtual stomach to digest virtual oranges... lol :)

/mz
 

Weaver
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 06:39 pm:   

there are physical modelled oranges as well, you should try some.. taste great!!!
 

scott b
Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 10:48 pm:   

hi

just thought I'd add that the Spring Reverb algorithm from the PSP EasyVerb has now been released as a seperate FREE plugin called PSP SpringVerb.

the catch is that it's only available on the Computer Music Magazine cover CD:

http://www.computermusic.co.uk

it first featured in issue 68, and is there again in the current issue (69). they may add it to their library, which means that it will be in every future issue, but I have no idea about this.

CPU usage is also acceptably low for me in FL Studio 4.5 under Windows 98SE. compared to SIR running a spring reverb impulse, it's minute.

if you want a simple, straight-up Spring Reverb plugin for your digital dubs, this is surely the best yet.
 

HM
Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 11:20 am:   

Like mentioned I will return with a test, up
against a RE-201 and Spring-King, I actually
did bye the hole magazine just to get this
plug, It´s sounds nice but it´s far from any
spring-sound, that is my first impression at
least, a little bit disapointing I have had
some better expectation due to their "piano-
verb" that acttually shows what PSP are able
to when it comes to non-linear algoritems

HM
 

Neil C
Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 03:39 pm:   

Going back to Reaktor Sessions - I've got Reaktor Sessions, and as good as it is, the spring reverb emulation isn't much good, it doesn't really get close to the real thing (it is reminiscent of a spring reverb, but I won't be using it).
 

HM
Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 06:00 pm:   

thanks for the info, my test is canceled,
it would be wasted time, in short PSP did
not come up with any breaking new plug, as
reaktor did´nt either, everything is as it
used to be, spring-king is nice, but mike
proves also that just getting an tank and
insert to the desk might evt. be just as
good,......

HM
 

Finn Anklam
Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 05:11 pm:   

Hi all, check out http://www.simulanalog.org/. they have a free PlugIn Pack. The Guitar amp simluations JCM 900 and Rednef Twin offer spring reverb.

If anybody knows some really(!) good(!!!) VST plugs (Windows) for early refelctions, please let me know. Thanks !

Finn
 

HM
Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 07:27 pm:   

hmmmmm, I have just checked out, the Redneff
got only tremolo, and JCM 900 spring just do
sound like a "distorted-tale" :-) not even
a little "spoing" I would say,

HM
 

aleph
Posted on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 05:19 am:   

the amplitube plug in/
a really interresant plug in unfortunatly not for his "spring verb" emulation (hahaha mutch better buy a real one ,the cheapest would be better than all emu)but this is a relly good amp simulation for guitar,bass(controlling input level for sub furious settings ;) ,organ .......even the a "too clean" snare..
the reverb ,delay parametric eq can bring an interresant color too
he eats a lot off memory but i think it s the only one i know really usefull for roots dub style
 

Ashley
Posted on Wednesday, April 28, 2004 - 09:56 pm:   

Reverb plugin
http://www.knufinke.de/sir/

Roland RE 201 Space Echo Impulses for reverb plugin
http://noisevault.com/index.php?page=3&action=file&cat_id=6&id=133

Ashley.
Free Reggae Dub -
http://www.versionist.com/artist.php?artist=ASHLEY
Http://uk.geocities.com/edashreeve
 

interruptor
Posted on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 10:47 pm:   

I recently tried out the "acoustic mirror" a convolution reverb (like SIR) that comes with Sound Forge. It is sold with a library of impulse responses which also contains a small selection of spring reverbs.
It sounds much better than what I expected based on the linearity/nonlinearity considerations made earlyer.

Here are two examples:

bass drum clean
bass drum treated with impulse response "Spring Guitar Amp 1"
bass drum treated with impulse response "Old Analog Synth"

Since hearing this I think convolution reverbs can really be helpful for imitating a spring!
 

Neil C
Posted on Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 12:28 pm:   

These examples work quite well in SIR as they are (you just need to cut out the lower frequencies, although I was getting unusual latency) .
All we need now is some Spacexpander samples.
 

Ras Jopotrax
Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 06:52 pm:   

Greetings

Well, I know Voxengo Oldskool Verb from http://www.voxengo.com/freevst/ it is very simple but its sound differs from other digital reverb plugins

And there is Revalver from Alien Connections, it is guitar effects synth actually, but has reverb effects
 

Hans De Ley
Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 12:50 pm:   

PC users are more lucky to find spring-rev simulations i guess. As mac user, i prefer AMPLITUBE, ALTIVERB, REASON,....but i didn't found a good one yet. :(
 

Hajja
Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 12:38 pm:   

I sumtimes use the Korg MDE-X reverb unit, its from the Korg Legacy Collection.
 

Zadok
Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 10:58 pm:   

Those samples provided sound pretty good for spring simulations, I'll have to try out some of these mentioned plugins. Presently, I'm using a analog NEI Spring Reverb unit as well a pulled spring tray from a Hammond. I'm happy with both, but could probably use a computer plugin for portability at times, even just get a feel of how something sounds with sping reverb. Too bad you couldn't kick your computer to get these springs to rattle a bit, probably not advisable.
 

HM
Posted on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 01:54 pm:   

my sprin-king got a "kick-field" :-)

yes very inspirring effect

HM
 

51RIV5
Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 07:16 pm:   

Excellent thread, thanks for the information. Really helped shatter a lot of myths but giving loads of inspiration to try different ideas & ways of trying to reproduce the classic spring reverb & tape delays digitally - been trying without much success for ages.

Can't remeber who suggested it but I found the LUXONIX LFX-1310 - combining the spring reverb & phaser - was awesome.
That & The Interruptor's bionic delay with sends & feedback controlled by midi controller box - immense.

Check out http://www.versionist.com/music.php?id=3934

tune called "Sprung". My attempt at trying to recreate that reverb.
Delays & Sirens courtesy of Bionic Delay & DubSiren, Thanks Interruptor, incredible plugins.
 

Miksmaster Luguber
Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 02:48 am:   

Spring reverb emulation using several plugins (in Fruityloops):

I've found a way of creating fairly realistic springreverb sounds in fruity loops using a normal reverb plugin, a filter and a controller-plugin with a LFO (Peakcontroller) + a speakersimulator. (mda combo)
The point is to make the lfo, set on fairly rapid speed(near the fastest setting), control the filter cutoff to create the crazy twang sound of the springs. I won't elaborate the settings any more than this, just tweek the settings until you are satisfied. I'm sure this is possible in other sequencers too. Just try it out!
 

Albertv05
Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 07:00 pm:   

Native Instrument's "Guitar Rig" has really awesome spring reverb. I own a vintage Premier 90 Spring Reverb Unit yet I mostly use Guitar Rig because the emulation is so great sounding. It doesn't do so well on really large snare hits sometimes, but 90% of the time its perfect. Worth a try with the demo version. www.nativeinstruments.com
 

Neil C
Posted on Saturday, July 23, 2005 - 05:14 pm:   

I tried it - the Guitar Rig spring is decent in its own right (and guitar rig in general very good), especially for general reverb ambience on a guitar, but for the classic plop on a percussive sound it doesn't have it for me. Not awesome by any means.

Certainly worth a try of the demo version though.
 

DiGiT
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 07:02 am:   

sorry if this is late, but heres a nice spring reverb model...

http://www.dsparsons.uklinux.net/SpringLine_Beta3.zip
 

interruptor
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 04:23 pm:   

thanks for posting this digit! we have been waiting for years on this list for somebody to actually putting effort into emulating a spring.

have to try this beta version out..

here is the discussion at kvraudio where the developper duncanparsons published this plug:
link
 

DiGiT
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 08:04 pm:   

hey im very satisfied with it.

thank you duncan parsons!

he says hell make a proper plugin out of it at some point in the future. i cant wait!
 

oomingmak
Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 02:07 pm:   

OMG!!! Thank you Duncan.

I have been waiting for someone (anyone?) to do a Spring Reverb for ages.

I bookmarked this thread 3 years ago, and I've been occasionally revisiting since then. It was pure chance that I happened to looked at it again today.

Great work! Much appreciated.
 

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