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folè
Posted on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 03:27 pm:   

i hope that someone will explain this difference to me in a clear way
 

interruptor
Posted on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 06:49 pm:   

breakbeat: a rhythm pattern created by cutting an existing natural drum beat into pieces (using a sampler or computer) and reassembling the parts in a different way.
drum&bass: sub-genre of techno music existing since the early nineties, originally based on breakbeats. also called "Jungle" sometimes. since around '97 completely sequencer-based electronic beats started to dominate the drum&bass scene therefore it does not make much sense to use the term breakbeat for it anymore.
breaks: short word for breakbeats
 

Mike Zee
Posted on Friday, November 29, 2002 - 07:53 pm:   

drum&bass: sub-genre of techno music !!!!!

NO NO NO , man, I know it may be a sort of a "slide of'a'way of saying ...., but seriously, d'n'b has not sub/root connection to techno music.
Actually people often confusing the word "techno" with almost about anything in electronic/computer/or what have-you "modern" musical 'genres'....
Even sure there are many cross influences between all of the genres , but really, techno has its own pretty much stand-alone branch, sort of speak.
More to that, from point of view of "style" and feel of the music, techno is more "streight-forward pulsing groove oriented music", which much more rely on electro/synth sound than on "drum pattern structure and its variations", actually more to that, techno may even be seen as "anti-break" groove :), in a sense.
*********
I have to add from myself, that to make it a bit less confusing, when trying to define musical genre/style in modern electronic music, then you better try not to look at technical side of the production, simply because nowdays techniques may be very similar, like using computers, samplers, loops etc etc ... it's just everywhere, from techno to rock ....
********
So it is better to look into history first, and geography... and also try identify some specificas of the style, which are like a MARKS, which are always there and specific for a genre.
**********

fole, your question is a bit too hard to answer on a b-board. I can drop a few links to read:

notes on d'n'b history, there are some other stuff there...
A short history of Drum and Bass By Ben Gilman
d'n'b b-board, lots of blahhhh there
************
from technical point there's no difference between break beat track or drum'n'bass track, well, in general, of course.....
drum'n'bass tracks however have very specific focus and overall feel of the groove and using of "supporting" elements, such as synth, vocals, or any other extras and sound-effects. Also drum'n'bass has its own subgenres, which are pinting to more specifics, mostly regarding to its structure/groove feel and ambient/atmosphere.
********
break-beat track is pretty much any track, which based on cuts of rhythm patterns. It's more of a free-form, as well.
I think, you can say, that drum'n'bass is a form of break-beat. BUT, after you just say this, you may think, and say: "But, not really...", heh heh , because, again, you can say this only from "technical" point....
********
Visit: www.raw42.com,
it's a good recourse for a info, music etc....

/respects
/Mike Zee
Z-D-L
 

KoCha
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 11:53 am:   

Thx for the education Mike ;-) !!

KoCha
 

Mike Zee
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 06:21 pm:   

KoCha, i'm not an "educator" ..heh heh ... also I know myself a little less than a little..., simply because of "history" and "musicology" of electronic music is like a huge net in time and space...really, I'm not trying to be poetic, it's just way out of hands, and really too much to hendle by a single brain. Not to mention, that many aspects of history, musicology and genres in electronic music are always subjects of very interpretations, and often the so called "history of this" or "history of that" also reflects the views of the person who writes the "history" more than actually reflects the reality. However, if you just read through you at least may get some general idea, but never take everything as IS.
One thing is for sure: musicians/producers always were and are influenced by each other (regardless of musical genres). Evolutions within a musical genre (as result of cross influences) may more reflect simply the moods, tastes and winds of time (say it like: what's cool at the moment, you know), than any specific "rule of genre". Another words, moods and sense of time across all genres is a force which "breaks the rule", and then we may be witnessing a "fenomena of new genre birth", which also may be an illusive act, but we rush to give it a new name and feel good, becoming fans of something, which we've just "established" for our own pleasure :).....
I'd recommend to read one more article on subject of "history" of techno, which is on of my fav., because it sort of reflects how "cross influences" work, also give you some sense in time how and where the "roots" of techno-music are coming from, also this is a subject of discussions, and even fights ..heh heh :).
Someone once has said: "Techno was born in 90-s in Detroit"...and everybody said: "YEAH!!!!!"...
Which I don't think has anything to do with reality. However, the "truth of the moment" is what's most people think... so there...:)
Here's the link to article: MACHINE SOUL - A History Of Techno by Jon Savage
**********

later, guys,
/respects
/Mike Zee
MZE-ZDL music
 

interruptor
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 09:34 pm:   

"NO NO NO , man ... d'n'b has not sub/root connection to techno music"
Mike: Of course you can trace back Drum&Bass to Dub and Reggae if you want to. There even was a time when tracks like Shy FX' "Original Nutter" were huge and brought together the "Techno" and the Reggae side. But that was back in 94'.. 8 years ago! Since then Drum&Bass split up in different subgenres. At least in my area the Drum&Bass tunes played at parties nowadays will hardly remember you of it's Jungle/Reggae origins (Many D&B heads will tell you that "Raggajungle" was just a bullshit phase in D&B history).
That's why for me Drum&Bass is a techno subgenre.
I was running a series of Ragga/Drum&Bass crossover parties together with friends here in Zurich for years. At the beginning we had a lot of people in the crowd who liked both styles and we really had ONE party. But over the years the styles drifted apart more and more and we ended up with a crowd split in a part which doesn't like Reggae and a part which does not like Drum&Bass..

I use "Techno" as a term for all "machine driven" music (electro, d&b, trance, prog. house) opposed to "people driven" music (Reggae, Dancehall, Dub, Soul, Rock..).
 

Mike Zee
Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 02:29 am:   

I use "Techno" as a term for all "machine driven" music
Daniel, I know what you mean. Not only You use 'techno' this way nowdays. Which is fine, as a general term. But, c'mon, you can't mean it in term of actually "genre of electronic music", unless you completely ignore everything, and just say what ever you feel like. I know personally people in my area , guys who are producing electronic music since ages back, and they call "techno" pretty much any electronic music ...from house through trance and what have you.
Many D&B heads will tell you that "Raggajungle" was just a bullshit phase in D&B history
heh heh, this is true true true. I know many guys like that. Which , well, I don't know...what really to say. I would not fight over this, simply because there's no reason for it.
Also I have to mention, that nowdays the speed of "new blood entering" in electronic musical production is so high.... guys are starting making tracks using what ever they can get hands on...most of the time it starts straight from ACID, FL, and alike.... and they are messing around with vary of samples, sounds, loops, breakes... nobody gives a crap about what you're are making.... and they don't give a crap about "genres"...actually even often being very proud ...calling themselves - "innovators, revolutionaries...blah blah, creative minds... etc...
With computer you can produce stuff without any connection to actually any kind of musical knowledge. Just try this button, try that app, push this, apply that, cut/paste - render- burn..... and see what's pleasin' your ear or brain... or a** :).
*****
The bottom line is, it's all up to you...
You can try to keep up with some knowledge... or you can do and say what ever you wish...
I don't really know what's better...
not sure if I care anymore... heh heh

/respects,
/Mike Zee
 

Sata Weeva
Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 12:41 pm:   

I Love that "bullshit phase in D&B history." Becoz it was a blend - of slow dub riddims and fast, chopped-up beats. Now D&B just bores me. One loop repeated incessantly with no riddim. No fun. No skill needed. Might as well you be dead.

Even tho Jungle brought the reggae and techno heads togadder it din't appeal to the masses, and all tings fall to the common denominator. What was good becomes bland. Cha.

Peace.
 

interruptor
Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 10:26 pm:   

well said, sata. exactly my opinion.
 

bin_ez
Posted on Thursday, December 05, 2002 - 05:01 am:   

To be honest, I don't really have a clue what you guys are talking about. I only listen to reggae, and I think I'd get sick if I had to listen to too much electronic music.

But don't you all agree that sometimes, labelling music can go a bit too far?
Well, it might seem a bit contradictory seeing as I just said I only listen to reggae (which is a slight overstatement, slight mind you), but I think labels are okay provided they donn't go overboard and you have legitimate reasons for the label. Such as waltz. A waltz has certain distinct characteristics. As does reggae.

The problem with this is you come across things like Redemption Song. Do you consider Redemption Song a reggae song? I feel a lot of people will say absolutely, but I think no. It doesn't have any of the typical characteristics, which I compiled on another forum:

Rythym guitar on the 2 and 4 beats.

Drum pattern, ie a One Drop or Flyers pattern.

An organ shuffle.

Percussion.

A melodic bassline.


I'd like to hear all of your opinions on this. I mean it's all bullshit really, but I find it interesting nontheless.
 

Sata Weeva
Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 12:30 pm:   

Definitions are always a personal thing. And words are often clumsy and inadequate. (Which is why we make music, cah words cyaan say everyting.)

As to reggae borders - Peter Tosh say reggae was in the beginning and the end. All music come from reggae. Personally I call all reggae's variations "reggae" whether Ska, Dancehall, Jungle, Rockers, Roots, etc. What reggae actually is I won't give a concrete definition but when I listen to music I look for de reggae element/feeling in it.

Reggae is Sufferer's music. The form is not as important as the spIrit.

Jah Love.
 

Mike Zee
Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 06:24 pm:   

Reggae is Sufferer's music. The form is not as important as the spIrit.

Well, guys, you see, I know what's the point here, and it's fine with me, if You(we) STILL stay within some sort of "borders" of common sense.
Definitions in musical genres can be sure a "personal thing", but think about this:
If I am going to waltz around with Mickey Mouse and sing the "song of my suffering" and then call it - REGGAE....., what would you say to me. I'd think, you'll say: "Hey, Mike, you gotta see your phsy-doctor as soon as possible" ... heh heh :)

funny or not, but some todays electronic-music producers do thing like that, - create something and call it whatever..., and leave the listener 'scratching his/her head'....

/respects
Mike Zee
 

Mike Zee
Posted on Friday, December 06, 2002 - 06:32 pm:   

and, yeah, speaking of some "modern drum'n'bass forms". Have you heard so called drum n'bass tracks with NO Bass at all in it??? :)... You know those tracks, which has some sort of "jentle drum patterns..., rolls, rushes etc..." and some spacy synth or what ever can fly around it....
These kind of drum'n'NO'bass tracks more sound like brushing teeth, while dreamin' of a better place to be at the moment, than your bathroom ...heh heh ....

later,
/respects
/mike Zee
 

interruptor
Posted on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 05:18 am:   

"..drum n'bass tracks with NO Bass at all in it.."
oh yes i remember.. they called that "intelligent drum&bass" at the time by the way hahaha.
one of the tunes which started that craze around '96 was pulp fiction by alex reece, not a bad tune at all i dare to say.
 

Mike Zee
Posted on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 07:08 am:   

"intelligent drum&bass" - :) - LOL ....

Daniel, there's also Intelligent Techno, you know.... Actually I never could understand the whole deal about "intelligent" this and "intelligent" that thing. But it's there, so be it...
I actually thought, that "bassless d'n'b" is somewhere in so-called "atmospheric drum n'bass"....
BTW, it's true, that there are allots of really interesting and cool productions ...., it IS kind of strange that something totally basseless still can be seating under drum n'bass roof...well, again, words words words...
So, I guess, it works like this: windy atmosphere is blowing and washing away all the bass and actually drums as well, so there're only memories a traces of it left, and it's sounds like a gentle brushing in space of your widely opened intelligent mind ... :)

Actually, I think, I've heard of so called "drum n'space"... or am I making it up? ..heh heh, so you really need to be pretty intelligent to be able to fill the space with bass out of your own imagination, while the brushes and scratches are taking you away ....

,
ok,
;\
later, guys,
respects,
/Mike Zee
 

Sata Weeva
Posted on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 12:33 pm:   

When I write a song I don't give it a genre and confine it to that. If the music takes a dif'rent form and it works then I go with it. Come to think of it, most of the time I do sit down to write something specific it mutates into something else.

Genres are just something applied by journalists and record stores to (supossedly) make it easier for (unadventurous) consumers.

Let's face it, you could pick up an album listed under Dub with all the Dub elements but it just doesn't grab you. Then you might hear some classical piece (for instance) and it speaks to you. The genre is not important, the music is.

Respect.
 

Sata Weeva
Posted on Saturday, December 07, 2002 - 12:59 pm:   

A likkle perspective on why I don't see genres as important.

I've lived and worked in rural Australia for several years and when I say I produce Dub ppl jus look at me blankly. If I mention Reggae they might think for a while then say "Oh, Bob Marley." It's like Bob is a genre of music to some ppl. BTW "root" in Oz is a euphamism for sex, so if I told ppl I mek Roots music I think I'd just mislead them. :)

Words funny boy.


Jah Love
 

KoCha
Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 07:52 am:   

Sames in my rural switzerland... Sata Weeva ;)

People don't know dub... But fortunaltly they know bob marley, and it's the only reggae singer they know. But they interested in what i say when i speak about dub.

Oh but here root don't mean sex lol!

KoCha
 

Sata Weeva
Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 12:55 pm:   

KoCha, You must explain Dub better than I&I. How do you explain to people who have no idea about the recording process what Dub is?
I usually say it is Reggae with effects on it but, of course, that nah do it justice.

Love Peace and Inity.
 

Mike Zee
Posted on Tuesday, December 10, 2002 - 06:30 pm:   

There's no way to explain what's dub is to a person who has no idea about reggae music, or even if the person's idea of reggae is "No Woman No Cry" ... and this is it. (well, it's a good point to start thou .. :))
Now, most "mid"-age people have pretty good idea about reggae music, 'cos they lived through "reggae's world ride"..., however some newer generation boys and gals actually have absolutely no idea about what's reggae is... it's just true.
To say: "Dub is a specifically remixed reggae song, with vocals "cut-outs" and accent of rhythm (bass and drums), applying effects, mostly delay (echo-like repetitions) on vocal and leading instrumentals (commonly)" would do pretty good for any person who has an idea about reggae songs/music. You can add to it that some dub(s) are actually originally written, recorded and produced instead of re-mixing an original version of some reggae-song, but the result is similar.
Of course, the best way is to actually hear the sound/example than listen to somebodie's words about it....
********
well, we have another topic here about what's dub, btw....
old conversation .. heh heh :)
all I can say is: there's no dub without reggae.
Dub (as genre of music and surrounding it culture! (I may even say a "cult" :)), simply would not exist if it was not for reggae.... silly stuff, isn't it?
I know, I know... dub this ...dub that, blah blah....
***********
and again, repeting myself.... to define musical genre you just have to look into history, culture and fans/listener's community - that's how to really understand any musical genre.
And of course LISTEN to examples, don't just read about it.
Musical structure (from traditional musical point of view) and production techniques are just a portion of the whole picture, and often actually have no specifics for some genres, or can be applied on vary genres, which are way way away from each other. Like house, drum'n'bass and dub all can be structured as reggae based (as starting point), use the same techniques of production ... but they are all totally different creatures.
Especially production techniques! You know, every producer use EQ... does it mean that equalization makes vary musical genre similar from that point?????, every poducer does RECORD. Right? Is recording actually a part of techniques? Well, everything is just music, after all, right? I know, I'm stressing out the issue here... but I am just trying to highlight the point.
Are genres important? hmmmm, I'm not sure why even ask this kind of question. They just are what they are - musical genres. It's like to say: "I don't care what kind of car I drive, as long as it runs"...., but there are still automatic or stick-shift, front or back drive, sport-cars and family cars etc etc.... different "car-genres", it's just there, they are all just cars, sure :)

BTW, the fact that house, techno, dub, d'n'b tracks etc... are being used/played at the same dance/club party by a DJ does not make all these genres the same, or groups them somehow into what ever-group just because of the fact, that they are being played under the same club's roof... :), even if the DJ say: "Ahhhh, my mon, you know, I don't care 'bout genre-t'ing, you know, I just play a mix of all sorts of 'KULL' techno-stuff" ....lol

best regards,
and respects,
/Mike Zee
 

KoCha
Posted on Monday, December 16, 2002 - 08:47 am:   

I like the descripiton of MZ and it's the same i do, but i prefer to make hear the man.. and then it understand ;)

quote :
"all I can say is: there's no dub without reggae."

They have over music style that use dub technique but i totally agree : Dub was nothing without reggae! and keep old vibes in mind.

Love to read your so long post mike zee.

KoCha
 

eprst
Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 11:27 pm:   

if i may say there is no such thing as drum n bass with no bass.. someone said a track called pulp fiction started the craze, how you could miss the bassline in pulp fiction is beyond me ;)!!! perhaps you should listen again.. even the so-called intelligent or atmospheric drum n bass - theres still bass!!! deep bass!!
yes the majority of drum n bass now is just 7mins worth of distorted synth lines over a looped break.. but the beatscience and the creativity that was the defining factor of drum n bass in its early days is coming back and gathering a loyal (if still relatively small) crowd of followers!
 

Mike Zee
Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 12:05 am:   

eprst, yeah, you right.
But, the way it goes: first IT gets "deep" then it gets 'transparent'...and next thing - IT is gone ...heh heh :)
Some producers may call it, like: natural 'evolution' of drum'n'bass... then again , some producers will start waving that "flag of freedom of artistic expression" and "breaking the 'law' ...or what have Ya' ...:)

The bottom line, imho, if there's no bass - there's no drum'n'bass .... if the bass is on the adge with 'transparancy' and 'silence' ... to me it's no mystery..... I don't want to 'imagine' the bass sound (nor "feel it within my deep soul adventures") in the holes of nothingness... I want to actually hear it, so bring it on, man lol ....:)

/respects
/Mike Zee, aka Dr. ZEE
ZDL
 

bad_brain
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 02:53 pm:   

I'm quiet surprised that I didn't find anything about the Congo Natty label in a topic about jungle/dnb on a reggae forum. For those who don't know this Londonian jungle label, I strongly advise you to check for :

the whole RAS serie (01-13, beware of the bad reissues), produced around 96-97 which contain masterpieces like Junglist, Fever of Emeperor Selassie I; some plates of the ZION serie (1998-99) contain good remixes (avoid at all cost the first one, which contain an emetic mash up of bmw's exodus); the rest of the Congo Natty discography is quiet a mess : you've got plenty of white labels and shitty repress, so take care if you buy. Additional recomendations would be the RASTA album (contain original versions of later remixed songs), the LION serie (95, quiet funny jump-up style plates), the original dubplates form 93 and 94 (for documentation purpose :-)), and some of the recent prods like LASTDAYS, JAHNODEAD2001, BOBMARLEY, STARLINER, HAILESELASSIEILIVES (this is really if you prefer the actual sound or if you can't get enough of CN) ...

Even if you're not a jungle head, you should check these prods cause there's a LOT of reggae and dancehall samples in and it's quiet funny to recognise them while listening. For me, that jungle IS reggae music in a new shape ... check it anyway :-). If you want to trade mp3 or just to talk bout music, mail me.


Sorry for my lousy English (I'm French). (Great site and forum by the way)
 

Mike Zee
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 05:01 pm:   

I'm quiet surprised that I didn't find anything about the Congo Natty label in a topic about jungle/dnb on a reggae forum.

Bad_Brain, what is sooooooo surprising? Guys are discussing difference between breakbeat,breaks and drum & bass, why would they mention Congo Natty lable... or any lable in that regard ??? :)

Jungle is Reggae in New Shape? hmmmmm that's rather stretch than true ;). There's allots of productions with many reggae and dancehall samples in it, which are not even close to reggae.... nor dub. Similar to example: if you use Carl Orff's Carmina Burana samples to mix it with rave techno beat - this will not make it classical in a new shape nor form, but it will be a rave techno track with Orff's Carmina Burana samples in it :)

/respecta,

/Mike Zee aka Dr. ZEE
 

bad_brain
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 06:23 pm:   

:-) don't see nothing bad here ... just talking about Congo Natty to present it to people who don't know it, cause I love it ... when I say "reggae in a new shape", I mean "by the spirit of the music" not by any technical issue so there's no need to argue on that.

Peace. :)
 

interruptor
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 06:43 pm:   

i also like the congo natty stuff.
 

bad_brain
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2003 - 07:07 pm:   

This has nothing to do with CN but has with the topic :) : originally, breaks didn't come from sampling or pc editing, it was all about the turntable technics of the old school hip hop djs. Them bought two times the same record, and they played play the break on one table, cut the sound of that table, played the break on the other one and so on ... skilled djs could do the whole beats of songs simply with their hands, VERY skilled djs could sort out irregular rhythms from simple breaks (check today's DJ Shadow :) [GOD himself]).

About Congo Natty, which are your favourite tunes, interruptor ?

And also, I would like to learn how to build preamps and electronic stuff like that, I have no skill at all in that field, any advices ? (I actually know this is not the right topic to ask that, so where's the right place ?)

Thanks.
 

howitza
Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 04:53 am:   

Peace ya'll I just came across this board and have found many interesting tings a gwan. Big up all the Idren here
I would like to clarify/contribute to the definition of breakbeat. The break is the part of a soul/jazz or funk song where the band "breaks" leaving the drummer to carry the rhythm for a few bars. These breaks are the basis of early sample driven hiphop ie-Marley Marl+The Bomb Squad, as well as its deranged raver cousin -Hardcore Breakbeat Techno. Layered or chopped up and edited (mashed up) with samples and other drum machines and analog basslines, these breaks are the skeleton of drum and bass music. The original Jungle/Drum and Bass sound was born when Hardcore Breakbeat Techno(basically sped up instrumental hiphop with layered synths and drum machines) applied dub basslines to the mix. Check Bassline Dub by Code 071 on Reinforced 1992 for an early example. Drum and Bass is the name given to the music that was less derogatory than "jungle techno" as it was originally called. The shift may have occured as more Bristolians got into the scene, many of whom would have been second generation Jamaican immigrants.
Ragga is jungle with dancehall samples characterised by rudeboy attitude and heavily edited (mashed up) breaks-most notably the Amen break (from The Winstons-Amen Brother. Ragga came to be around 93 and peaked in popularity with M Beat's Incredible which charted in the UK. Ragga has survived in pockets (Congo Natty is a notable example as well as Rewind records, N20, Big Cat, and Chopsticks) The drum and bass scene moved on to Jumpup(same fromula as ragga but with hip hop samples), Atmospheric, Hardstep, Techstep, Liquid Funk, Drumfunk, Clownstep, Flavor of the...
At some point in time Drum and Bass/Jungle kept increasing in tempo, and a scene split off calling itself Breaks(or Funky Breaks or Nu-Skool breaks, etc.) They took the tempo down a notch and were able to mix with techno, house, and trance forming whole new scenes like 2step garage.
The answer to the question of this thread is basically tempo. Breaks(the style, not the beats)tunes usually fall between 125 and 140 bpms, while Drum and Bass these days is anywhere from 165 to 180+ bpms.
For newer dubwise jungle/drum and bass check Digital, Amit, Breakage, and Alec Denver... More subtle production aesthetic than Congo Natty's hardstep with reggae samples stylee. No disrespect I dig them too, but I rate the aforementioned higher musically
To recap
A breakbeat is a clean sample of a drumbeat.
Breaks is a style of breakbeat oriented music that is 125-140 bpms
Drum and Bass/Jungle is a style of breakbeat oriented music at 165-180+bpm
Hip Hop especially circa 1988-1991 is a style of breakbeat oriented music at 75-120bpm
bpm=beats per minute
I hope this is helpful. Peace and Love, Idren...
More Time
 

Johny Bravosq
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 10:37 pm:   

Ein Schloss, Ein Wurst, Ein Kopf !sq
 

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basketball handicapping
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 01:16 am:   

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baseball handicapping
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 03:01 am:   

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baseball handicapping <a href="http://www.threadbomb.com/sportsbook/baseball-handicapping.html">baseball handicapping</a>
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free college football picks <a href="http://www.threadbomb.com/sportsbook/free-college-football-picks.html">free college football picks</a>

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