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Help me out! Recorder/Effects

 
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Max



Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Thu Jul 01, 2004 8:03 pm    Post subject: Help me out! Recorder/Effects Reply with quote

Hi,
guys, i have two "newbie" questions and i would REALLY appreciate if you help me out:

the image in the -basics- section shows four instruments plugged into the multitrack recorder. Say i have two of them - guitar and bass. Can i use samples from my PC for the rest of the dub? I mean i'm trying hard to choose a recorder - digital one - and i'm not shure if they can handle continious sampling on one track. Fostex MR-8? Boss BR-864?

then, as i recon, to make some dubbing i have to be able to throw effects on one track without interrupting others.
The Interruptor talks about pluggin effects to mixing console via aux. Is there any other way to do it? I was thinking about using 4 channel Dj-mixer (with effects). All those "kill"-knobs seem to be useful. Is it possible or shall i need 4 outs in the recorder for each track then?

Thanks and sorry my English.
Max
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Neil C



Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 364
Location: Moonbase Alpha

PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 1:58 pm    Post subject: Help me out! Recorder/Effects Reply with quote

What software do you have on your PC? - you can fully dub up inside your PC if you want to - several multitrack 'virtual studios' (e.g. Cubase, Sonar etc) are availabe.

You can use the same advice as in basics but substitute the outboard multitrack for a a sequencer/recorder in your PC - you can also get a virtual software version of any outboard effect.

You can use all samples if you want to, or any combination of live instruments and samples or any sound source you like.
Of course you can remain all outboard hardware if you want (and very nice too), but its very possible (and cheaper in most cases) to do it all in your PC.
(I'm not saying you should do it any particular way - but I just wanted to point all that out)
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Max



Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 9:27 pm    Post subject: Help me out! Recorder/Effects Reply with quote

Thanks for response,
at the time i use ACID/Forge, and i got quite familiar with both of them, but i do realise that i have to use some outboard equipment to be able to produce more clear and , well, realistic, sound......coz you know PC platform ain't that good for making music anyways and i dont wanna get stuck in the middle because i simply cant upgrade my PC (buy a new one) every half a year. It just seems to become some kind of a rat race by now.
Buy a Mac? No, i'll spend too much time to understand it's 'underworlds'.
So......i just think what outboard device should i buy to be able to use my sampling expierence, while using live instruments too....
Thanks once more,
Jah bless!
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Mike Zee



Joined: 20 Mar 2001
Posts: 766
Location: NY, USA

PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 4:02 am    Post subject: Help me out! Recorder/Effects Reply with quote

Max, just by buying some 'outboard' equipment is not coing to make your sound "more realistic", well, also depends on what you mean by "realistic". If you are talking about 'sounding more like real band, playing real instruments...then it's all about simply playing instruments and recording it... it makes no difference if you use computer as recording platform or hardware recording machine...again from the point of view "sounding more realistic".
Sounding more "clear"....? hmmmmm. Computer based recording is pretty clear.... just as any digital recording platform can get you. (well you need a good quality soundcard (a-d converter), ACID as recording software is just fine, well, not exactly my chice for froduction, but recording quality has no issue here.
And if You get Mac to replace your PC platform, it will not dramaticly improve your sound qualit, if any improvement at all. The difference is that Mac maybe a bit more pro-oriented platform and great quality hi-end software/hardware platforms are created for mac, but we are talking here about stuff, which you are not going to buy anyway for personal use... it's just too expansive and really needless, unless you are running pro-studio with other professinals involved and running around, crying and demanding: "Where's my Mac? Where's ProTools? I can't do anything on this PC-shit ?!!!" heh heh heh , see what I mean.
There are great hi-end software platforms for PC available nowdays, so the whole issue Mac vs PC is a real non-issue nonsense. But you sure need somewhat new machine so it just has enough power to handle multitrack recording and real-time processing, and again - your recording hardware part - the sound card is the "DOOR" to the quality-recording.

Having said all that! However. The whole another story when you are talking about producing dub-reggae. You see, then the whole another issue rises up. And first you have to make up your mind: what kind of dub-reggae you want to produce... and what dub-reagge is in your mind. There is a BIG difference between dub-music produced in digital environment using pre-programed digital effects and especially if the actual track was sequenced instead of tracks being laid by recording of real musician playing real instruments. When you mixin and dubbing on the fly using analog mixer the whole process and producer's mind-set is way different than when you sequence you track(s) and then build-up effects step-by-step, programming effects and actually sequencing(automating) effects and the whole mix. When mixing/dubbing on the fly on analog board it's more like an actual performance, you know, you sort of experimenting first, trying vary sends/retuns/settings and actual sliders moves, then you sort of rehearsing you mix, and then hit record on your mix-down recorder and GO Man....
Also there are some very specific effects which are sort of FACE of DUB, like analog tape delay and spring reverb and even analog phaser, which are very hard to model in digial domain if really possible. So for that reason, if you really care to have a true traditional sound of your dub-tracks, then you simply have no choice, but have to get these gear and build-up some hardware studio.
Now if you do, then for sure you need a 'better' mixing board. 4-chnl DJ-style mixer? no, man, isn't good for dubbing at all. Basicly, look for some board with at least 16 chnls, more send/returns also good, but really not that important (two send/returns is ok), but you need as many channel-strips on your board as your money can buy you, and you need some eq on each chnl, more eq-control - better, but at least lo/mid/hi - must have. Also Chnl inserts and direct chnl-out - make a big difference for dubbing!!!!!

ok, man,

/respects,
Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE
zee dub lab

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ZEE DUB LAB
Dr ZEE WORKSHOP
MZEntertainment.com
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Neil C



Joined: 25 Feb 2004
Posts: 364
Location: Moonbase Alpha

PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 2:30 pm    Post subject: Help me out! Recorder/Effects Reply with quote

I haven't yet found a VST effect that sounds like a Mutron Bi-Phase (I'm sure something that gets very close could be done) or a decent set of Spacexpander impulse files - but the VST delay I use sounds just the way I want (and is way way more convenient than having to use a real Space Echo (and it was free)).
You can hear extensive use of it on my (it does all the delays) track 'Yohombi':
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/4/vitalfeedmusic.htm

I'd really like to know how much you think that lacks in comparison to a RE-201 (and remember the not having to faff around with connecting up hardware, the tape loop and maintenance, the expense, and the convenience of full VST automation (and I can control it in real time with the knobs on my controller keyboard))

Don't get me wrong, I love analogue, and if I had the money and room I'd have more of it, but well - I was reading a magazine interview with someone who has a real Moog Modular synth but uses Arturia's VST version on his recordings because of the convenience, there you go.
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Max



Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 7:07 pm    Post subject: Help me out! Recorder/Effects Reply with quote

pheu!
i'll have to meditate over it for a while.

I APPRECIATE, GUYS!!!
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Max



Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:33 pm    Post subject: Help me out! Recorder/Effects Reply with quote

Mike, check out the thread

http://www.interruptor.ch/cgi-bin/discus/messages/1/297.html?1041205315

''Now, man, I am going to tell you this, but it's just my openion.
If you have some more serious thought about making dubs, then I'd recomend you to get yourself some cheap, maybe used basic equipment and start working/learning.
You'll need this:
mixer
recorder (multi-track, at least four track)
mix-down/master recorder (two track stereo)
couple effect processors (reverb, delay - minimum) "

there! it's my oppinion too!

so what multitrack you guys would recommend me at the moment? See, i have some more serious thought about making dubs. :) and i've never own any of the hardware before. (but i do play some instruments)

And as i understand the recorder has to have direct outs for each channel to pass them to the mixer....right? am i right? so that i could dub them (effects etc)

Can i use drum samples from PC instead of the live drummer - i mean can i load a track from PC and use it on one channel - DRUMZ-channel. :)

thanx-
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Mike Zee



Joined: 20 Mar 2001
Posts: 766
Location: NY, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 9:11 am    Post subject: Help me out! Recorder/Effects Reply with quote

what multitrack ...to recommend...
In general what ever your money can buy ..heh heh, seriously, id does not really matter what multitrack recorder do you have/use for dub ...again, generally speaking. Read through these topics also: recording machines discussion, we used to discuss some issues over there, but again, this discuassion, especially aspects of digital vs. analog has more academic rather than pracctical nature :)...
From practical point (in many aspects) I have to conclude, that nowdays the way to go is to get a somewhat powerful computer (any today's new computer or since around year 2000) has more power than you need for audio production), and then get a muti-in/out audio interface (recording card or computer recording system with mutiple analog inputs and outputs (for example M-AUDIO Delta-1010 recording card/system), actually if you are the only musician to be recorded, then you really need one stereo input and multi-output, however, having more inputs may be used in recording routing during production process).
So another words, the way to go is to turn you computer into multi-track recording machine.
Also keep in mind, that your really want to have all the editing and audio-takes/tracks arranging tools and options which only computer-based system can provide, especially if your are planing to actually play/record instruments by yourself, and especially if you are not a somewhat virtuoso-player/performer, then all the editing-power will actually be a real HELP!
AND! since some instruments/tracks you are can't/or simply are not going to actually play, but rather sequence (midi-sequencing of samples/or external midi-synthesiser/sound-module or audio-sequencing of takes/loops etc...), then having computer-based recording set-up as main production environment is simply the only way for you.
Of course, if you really wish to dig deepper into more classic/or vintage way of dub-production, then you can later add-on some vintage machine , like analog tape recorder and experiment with it.
Can i use drum samples from PC instead of the live drummer - i mean can i load a track from PC...?
Yes you can... sadly, but that's how most of actually of all sorts of music is being produced now days... combining actual perfomance with programed/sequenced parts ...not just drums, but nearly everything/or anything. And, if you have muti-in/out recording system/interface in your computer , then you don't need to "load" anything...it's all there. Record parts, sequence/program other parts, edit/arrange, assign computer's (your recording software) tracks to selected outputs, connect outputs with your external mixer....and mix-away...or dub-away ... :) Plus you can combine your software based mixing/processing/automating options with external mixing/processing during production process.....
Finally, I'd say it's nice to have an external maser-stereo recording machin (something like dat-machine or good quality CD-Recording deck) for your mixdown. But alternatively, you can send master out from your mixer to one of the selected and assigned input of your computer's recording interface (anouther words, you playback from your computer, externally mixing, while recording the mix back to a stereo-pair of the computer.

ok, man,
hope this is somewhat helpful to you... if you have specific questions ...ask away.

I have a page with some gear recommendations here: dub production basics at ZDL

/respects,
/Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE

_________________
Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE
ZEE DUB LAB
Dr ZEE WORKSHOP
MZEntertainment.com
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