| Author | Message | ||
     John Ellison IV |
Wait, Dub was made in the studio as a remixing technique. How can you do this live? How is this possible. | ||
| Mike Zee |
The band is playing, singer(s)'s singing (or recording on multitrack recorder is playing).... instruments, mics/voices are sent through chnls of the mixing desk, bunch of effect-processors, black boxes and such are connected to the mixer, then to PA and huge speaker-system setup, the "dub-master'" is seating behind the desk ....who is moving sliders, twisting knobs, pushing buttons etc, while swinging his head to the riddim... everybody are HI and happy ...  /Mike Zee aka Dr. ZEE | ||
| John Ellison IV |
ohhhhhhhhh, cool. | ||
| Hans De Ley |
You can also show your dubbingskills live ON STAGE. There are different methods. -you can pass all needed audio singnals (singer, snare drum, guitar, sampler, synth,..) through your own onstagemixer which is connected with your favourite fx-racks. The whole mix goes to the FOH mixer. In this case a good monitor system and an intense soundcheck are required because you can't hear how your mix sounds through the PA speakers. -you can also use the 'direct outs' of your mixers. This means that the different input signals (in your mixer) are send individually to the FOH mixer so that he can do the main mix and you can add the fx in complete dubwise style....while the crowd looks to your action.... ...greetz... | ||
| eating betty |
I did some live dub mixing from tapes a couple of times two years ago. At the time I was still using an 8 track cassette Tascam machine so I had the faders and EQs to work on. For effects I had a Lexicon digital reverb (not ideal)on one send and guitar pedals Phaser and delay on the other send. Very simple and easy to manage. I don't know how I would manage with more than 8 tracks though. The audio out was connected to the sound system's mixer and blasted through some powered speakers. Big and loud. One problem - first time the DJ's delay effect was on for my entire dub mixing session so I had weird timing problems - my delay and his delay being out of sync. Another difficulty was gaps between dubs - changing tapes was time consuming and sort of screwed up the momentum. Still most people said it sounded great. Now that my dub is completely computer based I have to figure out a way of doing that on stage. Any suggestions? | ||
| John Ellison IV |
This sort of sounds like a proto-type of turntablism...y'know like your doing a live remix. | ||
| Mike Zee |
Now that my dub is completely computer based I have to figure out a way of doing that on stage. Any suggestions? heh heh ...here's not serious really, but as a semi-joking point ;-) You see, if you bring on stage couple of cool turntables, a mixer, some strange blinking boxes making strange-kool sounds when DJ touches 'em, couple of keyboards, you stand behind all that, spin tha'shiny plastic discs over your head and on the tables, scatchin'...moving around etc etc ..... this is all cool-looking stuff, it all looks like a cool dude dancing around with cool toys...you can entertain the flock around you with this stuff A Personal Computer? On Stage? Hah hah hah... (well it was done actually). So how does it look? A Dud on stage behind a PC? heh heh....looks like an office nurd or or ? hmmmmm? ... like a cashier in K-Mart?. Personal Computer ain't cool at all nowdays, it is somewhat like a phone in the kitchen or like a coffe-maker or similar everyday device... try to entertain with that... /respects Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE ZDL | ||
| John Ellison IV |
Well, it's been done. Someone using a computer on stage. In fact, I have a tape of Frank Zappa using a personal computer and his Synclavier on stage. | ||
| Peter Peter M |
if you can move the crowd with a pc on stage why not...no-one cares that sherwood or mad prof stand behind the desk tweaking for their solo shows..they just wonder at the sounds and feel that they are in good hands for the duration is this a proper "live" show? dunno..but if not then neither is a dance | ||
| Mike Zee |
...no-one cares that sherwood or mad prof stand behind well, I do care. so there If I want to see what PC(s) can do and bunch of dudes standing behind them - I'd go to local weekly hame-computer trade-show. We have them at Civic Center all the time. It's fun, you know ... blah blah they just wonder at the sounds... ..well, then why to go to see the "concert" ...just seat at home, fire-up your home-theater ...and enjoy the sound. /respects, /Mike Zee aka Dr ZEE | ||
| peter m |
maybe i should clarify: when I said non-one cares I meant that folks are not upset that there is not a "real band" up there, and by wondering at the sounds I meant that they ARE appreciative of the fact that it is being cooked up on the fly just that they do not necessarily not have to stand watching it as a spectacle. Here when they have played they were positioned where noone could see what they were manipulating (maybe a video proj would have been instructive) no diss to live dubbing and no big up to the pc really... | ||
| Mike Zee |
Peter, I can sense what do you mean, really But just call for a common sense, man.... forget about all these "academic" arguments ala ...it does not matter how you do ....what you use...art is art as long the result is "an art"..blah blah Just look at this from a common sense, from a common 'folk' who wish to get entertaind at a life MUSICAL show...of any form. You see, to me regardles what and how you standing/seating behind a PC or a laptop... do get your sounds out of it on-the-fly or not...it just not gonna' fly anywhere for me. What ever you do with PC ...ain't gonna entertain a single hair on me.... it's just plain and simple. I can say it again, if I want to see what computer can do for Ya' - I'll go to computer-trade show. And, actually I recall ...let's say over ten-fifteen years ago or so ..., back in time when computers were sort of cool sh*t things, I remember some bands had a dos-sequencers running beats/or some grooves... while the rest of the band played something else...., electronic drum-pads also were SUPER-COOL things....and a guy would just stand behid couple of them and keep hitting , triggering that bash-bash electric snare shot.... and the lead-singer would sing some sort of pop-song ...yeah electo-synth-pop. Now, if I see a computer is nothing more than an everyday household device. If anybody wish to impress me with some music production software skills - I'm not going to view it as an entertainment show, but rather something like some trade-show for this specific software..... that's all. And the better sound comes out of it - more likely I may wish to buy this software or learn how to use it, but am I going to be impressed/or entertained by the guy who 'demonstrates all this'???? ha ha - no way in hell...it's just silly even to think about it. All I can say - well, this guy really knows how to use this sh*t. End of story. And I am actually a guy who may at least express some sort of interest in it, simply because I was/am into computer-based music-production myself, buy people who never had anything to do with, they will be completely bored to death, man by a such show, thay'll just say:"...oh ...ah? well ..sorta fun... yeah.hmmm?..what ever , let's get outa' here ..let's go to the bar...get some beer or something ...more fun, than watchin' this dude playing with PC".... heh heh okey, man, fun blah here /respects | ||
| tubbyrule |
Im currently in a band trying to play dub music- obviously a contradiction...however i dont see what particularly is wrong with the attempt. ive been told if its live its reggae, but our style is focusd mainly around a pumping bassline hooked with the drum beat, and chords from synth and guitar dropping in and out. To turn into real dub though is our aim- so are you saing we should run everythin through a mixer, and have a king tubby style figure on stage with us, dropping different instruments in and out, while we keep playing no matter wat? could get confusing methinks. | ||
| selector waxx |
you can do that, make your tracks with a daw (cubase or sonar), and with a midi controller, you can remixe your dubs live on stage with your daw and it's soundeffects. but you wil need a lot of equipment a decent dedicated pc or mac (last one is best, but also very expensive) (count about 2000-4000 ) cubase sx (700 )or sonar (?) + a lot of vst synth's (600- ... ) a good soundcard (low latency asio soundcard with 24bit/96khz sampling in/out) (200-2000 ) a good controller (mackie controller +- 1500 ) a tc powercore firewire sfx plugin (to do realtime effects) (1500 ) and if you want to use some live musicians, singers ed you need also a seperate mixer with a few compressors and sfx wich will cost you at least another 2000 ) this is a decent full set up, i heared people doing very good things with less, or older equipment. | ||
| tubbyrule |
nono- thats the point, we want to play it all live. not record the tracks beforehand | ||
| sir_chin |
bless! to play a steady riddim with the mix eng. doing the mutes etc. would mean you play in such a large venue where the sound of drums (when muted in the mix but still played by the drummer) don't reach the audience. very unlikely. the dub responsability has to be shared beetwen the musicians (expecially the drummer) and the mix eng. the musician would take care of the dynamics and mutes while the eng would provide panning, eqing and working the effects (echoes, reverbs etc.). guidance&light... | ||
| tom |
I play with a "live dub" band in Chicago, The Drastics. We've been playing clubs for 6 months, and we've developed a way (through trial and error) that does what we need to do pretty nicely. First off, we're coming from a group improvisation idea, so there's no "master organizer." The bassist drops out when he feels it, for example, and everyone's constantly reacting to these events. And our guitarist runs a mixer (a 12-channel Soundcraft) that runs various effects (Space Echo, phaser unit, etc.) For the setup, we let the soundguy mike everyone for the PA. For the dub, we set up a second set of mikes for every instrument (guitar, rhodes, horns, snare drum, organ goes direct) and run those into our onstage board, and output into our guitarists amp. This amp is being miked by the PA, so the dubbed signal gets picked up that way. Then every instrument is sending a dry signal to the PA and a signal to be used (or not used) by the dub organizer. Each member is in control of his "muting." By contrast, the band Dub Is A Weapon from NYC uses a similar setting (at least both times I've seen them in Chicago) but their dub organizer (Dave Hahn) cues the various members for dropouts, thus getting more of the "one person's vision" idea of original dub. This setup has worked for us from the shittiest sound systems to large clubs like the House of Blues, and took our soundchecks from 30 minutes to 10-15, since the dub effects are basically just another instrument to mike. The "guitar and dub through the same amp" technique also works nice because we typically play "rock" clubs and engineers always crank the guitar at these type venues, thus assuring that the dub effects are well heard. Peace | ||
| tubbyrule |
what a great idea! | ||
| jet |
I think this is also a nice way to make an entretaining performance: the people see the dub master twist a knob of the mixer and hear a "thunder snare" comming from a Marshall or a Vox. "GEEE... HE'S GOT A MIXER THING AND GREEN SCREENS ALL OVER!". Beats the faceless-DJ-typing-an-email of contemporary electronica. A small mixer, practice combo amp, a few mics and two stompboxes could add up to the price of a very good laptop, but you won't get the same techno-pagan feeling of an extravagant setup. | ||
| Pete Collis |
hey, my band The Deverills has 2 guitar/keyboard players, a DJ providing scratches and vinyl FX, a vocalist and myself playing keyboards and controlling the dubs. I have all of the instruments, a powerbook laptop and mic's coming into my 16 channel mixer. I assign each sound to a sub-group (Gtrs, FX, vocals, drums, etc) and send those to the front of house soundman and then I mess up the individual instrument channels on the desk with echoplex, mutator, spring reverb, etc. It works well and it means that people can jam within a vaguely structured track. and who cares about the audience hearing an instrument carry on playing when you've muted it - you've never heard the bleed on countless dubs from the Studio 1? Pete C - The Deverills, UK | ||
| Neil C |
Pete- whereabouts in the country do you gig? | ||
| Pete Collis |
Hey Neil we only play out a couple of times a year. The main reason for this is the hassle of rehearsals. I have to deconstruct my studio and take it all along to the practice rooms and then set it up again to continue working on the tacks. This can get a bit annoying. Lazy, I know! We usually play in the South-East UK. If you typr The Deverills into Google and follow the site that has "Panther Studios" in the address there are some photo's from one of our gigs last year. Do you play in a band yourself? We can rarely find good acts to gig with in the area who play good music thats suited to ours. Pete | ||
| Neil C |
I have exactly the same problem - deconstructing my studio which is now cosily and ergonomically lodged in the corner of my room (in a kind of high rise fashion). I have been out live with it (very successfully)- but it was a bit of a hassle lugging the stuff then, and since then I've added more stuff, not all of which I would take out live but which means taking out the bits I want to take more of a hassle. However I will be making the effort again quite soon. I'm based in Reading, Berkshire. You can check some of my music at: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/4/vitalfeedmusic.htm | ||
| Pete Collis |
Hey Neil Whats the name of your band? Is it just yourself or are there any other band members? I'm only about 20 minutes away from Reading and it's good to know that there are other people making good music in the area. You know how it is, you always think you're the only one in your shitty town making this music (actually, in Farnborough, I think we are!!). Maybe we could hook up for a gig some time. I'm thinking about planning something for next summer (maybe at South Hill Park Arts Centre). | ||
| Neil C |
The name of my act is Vital Feed - I've only gone out live with it once a while ago. The next live thing I do will probably be a sideline project under a different name, but I hope to be going out as Vital Feed again at some point. I've played at the Bracknell festival at South Hill Park for the last 5 or 6 (I can't quite rememeber) times its been on with another band I'm in who do African style guitar music (called Alanga). When I played as Vital Feed it was me and one oher person. I mainly played bass along to sequenced stuff and my colleague was mainly playing percussion along with it all. But I also varied it by getting on to my electronics now and again and also doing some 'live' sequencing (on my hardware groove module - Yamaha RM1X). We managed to do an hour and a half which is pretty good for a first gig - and the crowd still wanted more. The next time I go out with it I'd like to get some more people involved to make it more live and ideally a kit drummer as well. If you've heard my music (see link in previous post) and you think our bands/act would work well together I'd been really keen to hook up. | ||
| Pete Collis |
I can't download but if you've got a demo you send me I'll give you an address to post it to. I've got some stuff I could send you in return. I'm also a drummer and I'm waiting for a project to come along that requires funky hip-hop beats. Maybe we could explore this. Cheers Pete | ||
| HM |
I just did hear his music from that link !!! page loads very slow at my 512kbs line but the streaming does work when activated HM btw. nice tunes | ||
| McPullish |
In reference to John and Mike's comments-I've played live quite successfully with a Mac running my recordings (all analog, real instruments, no sequencing) thru a 12 channel Soundcraft and some useful effects. I've had live musicians on stage (vox,congas,sax, flute), but I think for dub the engineer needs total control of the rhythm(drums and bass.) There used to be downtime between tunes from loading and closing each track, but now I use a Line 6 delay to create loops out of the tracks that run between songs. For instance-I'll record 4 bars of drums/perc., double time it and lay 2 bars of bass, guitars ,etc. and create a little "remix" loop on the fly that makes a good transition to the next tune. People hear this and usually enjoy the improv aspect. Every time I play it's different sounds. As far as dubbing live bands is concerned- it can be cool but is usually limited by the fact that most musicians (even great ones) are thrown off by truly crazy dub effects and dropouts. The "dub master" will throw in cool effects here and there- but it's not dub in the true sense of the engineer's vision. I've seen Scientist and Mad Professor "dub" live bands and there were some nice moments but not really dub compared to their usual craziness in the studio. As a dub nerd I'd trade the band for real dub, and the only logical way to do this (for me, at least) is a computer with real sounds on it. Spinning records is fine and the simplest, but for true dubwise action you need control of the individual instrument buses. This does require moving a lot of gear which is why I strip it down to the essentials live and leave most of the studio home. It's still much more fun than setting up drums, micing everything, and dealing with inevitable problems like feedback due to echoes, etc. Check my website-www.mcpullish.com- if you want to see pics of this setup. There are no rules and the sound is what should matter. Dub It! | ||
| Meef Chaloin |
Hey, that's cool to hear that there are people dubbing around here. Im in Oxford & although there are a few bands & shows about they're mostly dj's. Im working on a live set now, computer based & solo but i'll be playing guitar and didj live. Should be interesting if i can ever get it sorted out. http://www.versionist.com/artist.php?artist=MEEF+CHALOIN | ||
| Peter M |
that would be quite a sight meef...u gonna play the keys w/ yr feet too ? Pete M | ||
| Meef Chaloin |
haha yes Peter, I'll have a midi pedal assigned to different things so I can trigger music or fx with my feet ;) | ||
| Armin Tanzarian |
refer to grimy styles. A dub quartet from austin, texas where each player is their own engineer, (including drummer) www.grimystyles.com | ||
| Downpressor |
I've been considering this topic alot more lately. My studio setup is iMac/Logic/Mackie MCU based and I simply refuse to move it around. I considered powerbook|ibook/Logic & a Tascam US428, but I no longer own a functioning laptop so thats out of the question for now. I've heard that the "delay between songs" problem can be addressed with Ableton Live, but I dont own it so I cant say. For me there would also be the issue of transferring my work between Logic & Live. When I saw Mad Prof a few months back, there was little time lag between songs and it looked like he was working some kind of mixer. I'm thinking perhaps he was using some kind of hardware DAW unit like those from Tascam, Zoom, Yamaha, etc. I've looked at them a bit, but the low-medium priced ones have too few physical controls for me to do a dub mix (no per channel EQ knobs, FX/bus send knobs, or really any knobs besides pan on most units). Does anyone have experience using one of these? | ||
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